The political fallout is calculated.
A gay marriage ban advisory referendum likely headed for the November ballot could boost turnout among conservatives in suburban congressional and downstate legislative races, but its impact on the governor’s race might only be marginal, political observers say.
Protect Marriage Illinois organizers turned in more than 345,000 signatures to state elections officials Monday, exceeding the 283,000 required to place a nonbinding statewide referendum on the fall ballot asking voters whether marriage should be defined as between a man and a woman. […]
“The accepted wisdom is that it’s the one thing that energizes the right wing,” said Chris Mooney, a political science professor at the University of Illinois at Springfield. “They’re turned off by both of the candidates. The referendum gets (conservatives) excited. It also gets the other side excited, but the other side aren’t as numerous.” […]
Where the gay marriage referendum could have impact is in the 6th and 8th District congressional races. In the 6th, Republican Peter Roskam of Wheaton supports the proposal while Democrat Tammy Duckworth of Hoffman Estates opposes it. In the 8th District, Republican David McSweeney of Barrington Hills supports it. Democratic U.S. Rep. Melissa Bean of Barrington could not be reached Monday to say where she stands.
“It seriously could hurt (Democrats),” said Rick Garcia, executive director of Equality Illinois, a gay rights group. “It clearly helps Roskam, because he’s one of the (conservative movement’s) drum majors.”
What do you think of all this? If the referendum survives the challenge, will it impact the statewide and down-ballot races? Is this the sort of thing that Mehlman was talking about?
- Anonymous - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 6:35 am:
Yes, gay marriage is the thing Mehlman was talking about. Makes you wonder where that group is getting all its money - They haven’t reported having any, but they sure are spending?
The group’s director is quoted in the Trib. calling gay people an “infection”. Creepy!
- Anonymous - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 6:54 am:
Well THERE’S ol’ Rick Garcia. We thought you had left the country since he doesn’t care about his buddy Rod’s ethics committee and the shenanigans going on there. Rickie, if you are going to be part of the ethics panel you must care about the Jews, too.
You don’t have to be an oh-so-cleverly titled drum major, but you do have to care about everyone. But then, maybe your conductor does not let you.
- DOWNSTATE - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 7:23 am:
Why did the governor extend health benefits to gay couples,which there is nothing wrong there, but refuses to give them to common law marriages between a man and woman.
- Dave - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 7:28 am:
Downstate: Perhaps it’s becuase gay couples have no marriage option while hetero couples do. Just a thought.
- Anonymous - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 7:32 am:
The IFI and it’s ilk set out to gather 500,000 signatures; they fell far short of that. Whether the signatures they submitted are mostly valid remains to be seen.
Their efforts may impact some lower ballot races, but more encouragingly, the political influence of what Andrew Sullivan calls the “Christianists” — Fundamentalists Christians with a political agenda (like Islamists) is on the decline. The Fundamentalists who work in their churches to get signatures would better spend their time feeding and clothing the poor, helping the homeless find shelter, and learning to love thy neighbor — even the gay and lesbian ones — as thyself.
This ballot petition is both unfair and unkind. It seeks to write discrimination into the state’s constitution. And I still do not understand how my brother’s marriage is harmed by allowing my sister to marry her girlfriend. I do understand how the efforts of LaBarbera and his sort hurt Illinois gay and lesbian families.
- the Patriot - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 7:55 am:
Since judy is pro-gay rights, it probably won’t move the Guv race much. Unless the conservatives just stick with Judy, but I imagine many will vote for none of the above. where I would expect the difference is in tight legislative and local races where a few thousand extra conservates can swing the race.
- DOWNSTATE - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 7:58 am:
Dave do for one do it for all that’s what a good governor would do but I would say this is another one of those “vote for me moves”.
- Murray Slaughter - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 8:41 am:
Don’t kid your self if you believe that this is only geared at the gay marriage issue. The Republicans have figured out that the wedge issue for conservative voters is this issue and want it on the ballot to save all Republicans up and down the ballot. They would be pleased as punch if this referendum was voted down in November so they could keep bringing it back. The Dems would be smart to place this on the ballot now and then pass it so it doesn’t come back every two years and eventually wipe them out!
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 8:42 am:
This will help bring the Conservative vote out,I doubt it will help Judy at all, but will help other candidates. Why do Gay’s feel so threatened when Conservatives express their opinion. We are voters and have every right to vote what we believe. If we go into our churches ang get active and united so what, do not gays do the same in their hang-outs.
- Murray Slaughter - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 9:04 am:
Dear Conservative:
The difference is this: Conservatives want to tell everybody what they can and can’t do in the privacy of their own homes. The other side wants to basically be left alone but afforded the same rights as everone else. I’d like to see a referendum that requires conservatives to mind their own business. Now that’s a petition I would sign.
- anon - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 9:31 am:
Illinois law doesnt recognize gay marriage or common law marriages, and in fact, illinois law statest that marriage is between a man and woman. This is just an attempt to motivate the crazies. If the advisory question does end up on the ballot it will impact the election. Remember this is only an advisory referendum - it doesnt mean this will be added to the Constitution. If they were seriously trying to impact law, instead of just screwing with the election, they would have moved for a constitional amendment not a referendum.
- Dr. Roy Hinkley - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 9:45 am:
It’s funny how conservatives want to bask in the warmth of their religious beliefs. But their tolerance for gays, liberals and miniorities is shameful. Their “hate based initiatives” make me ill. I agree with the previous poster who said that conservatives should keep their noses out of other peoples’ business. The country would be a much better and happier place.
- VanillaMan - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 9:47 am:
If its on the ballot, it will pass easily. It tilts the election towards the Republicans. We won’t know by how much until after the election.
Both parties are working their voters, and this is how the Republicans are doing it. The Democrats have had run of the state and have used our budget to pay off their voters. Both sides are doing what they are supposed to do.
The Democrats will try everything they can to kill this ballot proposal. They will belittle it, insult the voters proposing it, call them narrow minded, try to throw out every signature, use their media hacks to attack it’s integrity, slander them in blogs, and call them every name.
What they don’t want is democracy. They are afraid that the voters they consider ignorant, mouth-breathing, pimpled, gun toting, Bible thumping, gap toothed, bigots will not be convinced by their brilliantly logical minds.
They also know that if it is on the ballot, they will lose big.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 9:52 am:
Murray Slaughter : No one cares what another does behind closed doors, however we sure do care what is done in public…. ie; a so called “gay pride parade”. There are many examples. Good behaviour is good behaviour no matter if it is between a man and a woman or two females or males. When you are talking about families you are not talking about a sex act. When talking about “gays” you are not talking about families, you are talking about a sex act. Basic but simple.
When you are talking about an election you are not talking about equality you are talking about the majority. One vote more than the other side and you win. What are you afraid of. Surly everyone thinks liberal ideas in Illinois will win out? After all is this not a Blue state? You should be proud to put all of your liberal ideas out for this Blue state to support. Why even worry about christians voting, please be proud of what your side stands for and tell us all! You have the majority in this Blue state, right?
- Dr. Roy Hinkley - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 9:58 am:
Conservative:
“When you are talking about families you are not talking about a sex act. When talking about “gays†you are not talking about families, you are talking about a sex act.”
This is the most absurd thing I have ever read.
You are ignorant and scary. Blue state, red state, who cares state? All I know is that conservatives are haters and intolerants and that they want to tell everybody what is good for them. Get off your moral high horse and get a life, loser.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 10:03 am:
Hey Dr: I have a job and very good at it…. defeating Liberals, log track record. No crazy just serving the Master.
- Bluefish - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 10:05 am:
Quote the Conservative: “When you are talking about families you are not talking about a sex act. When talking about “gays†you are not talking about families, you are talking about a sex act. Basic but simple.”
What the devil are you talking about? In most cases, to create a family requires a sex act. Gay people are talking about being treated with the same rights and dignities that all people should be afforded and you’re talking gibberish.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 10:12 am:
Blufish: when two men, or women can have children through sex, then we can talk, until then, they are not equal.
- Dr. Roy Hinkley - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 10:46 am:
Conservative:
“I have a job and very good at it…. defeating Liberals, log track record.”
You obviously do not work in Illinois.
- fed up - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 11:00 am:
When talking about “gays†you are not talking about families, you are talking about a sex act. Basic but simple.
When talking about “conservatives” who support this mean-spirited referendum effort you are not talking about sane people, you are talking about ragingly incoherent bigots. Basic but simple.
- Pete Granata - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 11:08 am:
Roskam and his DUI campaign manager will be all over this one. When you can’t talk about the Iraq war, a broken health care system, Tom DeLay, you use the old vaudeville trick to divert attention–you send in the clowns.
- THE HANKSTER - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 11:13 am:
The Conservative: By your theory, anyone who can’t have children are unequal to those who can. This means that men and/or women who can’t have children are unequal to those who can.
Thats very American of you. I know children raised by two loving people would turn out a lot better than a those being raised by hate filled bigots.
- decatur's lincoln - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 11:20 am:
Waste of taxpayer’s money on a Karl Rove meaningless public question. It is there to get out the conservatives only. Gays are not endangering marriage between a man and woman. It is us straight folks.
Divorce,turning around and getting married soon again as possible is the problem.
How can a gay couple in a civil union hurt a union joined by God between a man and woman.
This is a red herring issue.
Many families have gay members should they stoned them next?
When did Christ speak of the problems of gay life style?
- Independent Wonk - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 12:09 pm:
The issue of marriage/gay marriage is not about what Christ thinks, what “conservatives” think, or even the dubious will of the majority. It is a matter of public policy. If the founders of this country wanted to forge a nation based on simple majority rule, they could and would have. Instead, we have a system of elected representation, both executive and legislative, and a judicial branch. However imperfect, one of the purposes of such a system is to protect minorities from the will of majorities. We are also not a theocracy, so we can leave Christ out of it.
And, last I checked, intrusive government regulation in private life is not a tenet of conservatism or Republicanism, so let’s stop calling it that and thereby maligning true conservatives.
Obviously, state election political maneuvering is at play here, not any consideration of the issue per se.
Considering the issue would involve thoughtful analysis of why the state regulates and supports marriage in its current form–what are the benefits to the public good? and what are the possible benefits/harms of marriage for gays and lesbians? NOT from a religious standpoint, but from the standpoint of whatever impact we think state legislated marriage has now.
- Anonymous - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 12:22 pm:
This proposal is far from on the ballot. That’s a lot of signatures, and it’s not easy to gather such a large number. My guess is large chunks of the petitions will be no good, and they’ll get tossed of the ballot.
Really, it’s pathetic. Their really are serious issues facing the state and the country, and when the right wing advocates for these tactics and issues that their priorities are totally different than those of average people.
- Dr. Roy Hinkley - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 12:29 pm:
Independent Wonk–
Wow, you mustnhave been captain of your high school debate team!
You say: “Considering the issue would involve thoughtful analysis of why the state regulates and supports marriage in its current form–what are the benefits to the public good? and what are the possible benefits/harms of marriage for gays and lesbians? NOT from a religious standpoint, but from the standpoint of whatever impact we think state legislated marriage has now.”
Our state law already prohibits gay marriage. The “true conservatives”, bless their fragile hearts lest we malign them, are the ones behind this, even thought they are being manipulated by the GOP strategists. I am just surprised that the “Pro-lifers” left their vigil outside Planned Parenthood long enought to get these signatures.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 12:56 pm:
Don’t have to leave our vigils, large blocks of registered voters in church, eager to sign and have. It is easy when the pastor give a sermon on the topic and the forms are at the rear of the church with your friends guiding you to where they are located after the service. You cannot call us names, we are the normal people, the real bigots hate God and that is the true battle.
- Independent Wonk - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 1:03 pm:
The true bigots hate God?
What?
As a Christian, and a (gasp) Lesbian, as well as a Citizen, I’ll be sure to pray for you, and defend your right to your opinion, your vote, and even your hatred, as long as it does not result in actual violence against other persons.
Good luck to you in your fight against the God-hating bigots trying to run the state.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 1:09 pm:
Dr Roy: You can call it what ever you want. If you have a loaf of bread and place it in a box and attach a pretty pink bow, when you open the box, still just a loaf of bread. The only difference is that the ribbon might have miss represented the contents.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 1:18 pm:
Independet Wonk: The only way you can be a christian is if you are a former lesbian and confessed your sin. Other wise just fooling yourself. Just “hate” to see you deceived. That is the only hate I have. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Back to the topic. Why are all you bigitted liberals so upset with this being on the ballot. You keep telling us we do not count in this Blue state, you should be happy not filled with hate. You have nothing to fear unless you read the end of the book.
- Midland - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 1:33 pm:
A gay marriage Amendment will definetly help the GOP, Roskam just recieved the Teamster’s Union endorsement today, the first time a Republican has ever got it. Along with Union snubs of Melissa Bean, it looks like Melissa and Tammy Duckworth are in serious trouble.
- Independent Wonk - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 2:41 pm:
Fortunately for me, you don’t get to decide if I can be a Christian or not. I’m sure that won’t keep you from trying–but you might want to beware of hubris, which doesn’t appear to be popular with Jesus.
Just for the record, I am not upset that the marriage definition clarification is on the ballot. That is a legitimate expression of a democratic society.
I am more upset when overall public policy is informed more by untempored emotion, religious fervor, and personal fear than it is by reason, evidence, and concern for everyone in our democratic society.
But that’s just life in politics.
- THE HANKSTER - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 2:48 pm:
I have come to the conclusion that The Conservative is insane. His childlike arrogance to believe that he knows all there is too know about life, death, God, ect would be kind of funny except for the fact that he is serious!
I hope God does not strike me down for not agreeing with the Conservative.
- The Conservative - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 3:12 pm:
Hankster, it is fine to dissagree with me as long as you know you are wrong and I am “Right”. On the serious side never said I know all, just that I know Jesus and He knows God and God accepts me by Grace through Jesus. The rest we will see at the judgement seat. On the political side there is nothing wrong with you gathering your troops and I gathering mine. That is what politics is about. I have every right to stand against what I see as bad for Illinois and this country and so do you. That is not hate filled. It is your side hat try’s to say we are fillied with hate, instead it is just the opposite. You cannot see it as love because we “just say No”. There is no such thing as seperation of church and state. No matter how many times you say it, it does not exist. Our founding fathers founded this the Greatest Nation on God’s earth, based on these same beliefs. If we as a nation under God where to change what He has established, we would perish as a nation and as a people.
- voice of reason - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 3:39 pm:
Hasn’t this wandered quite far from the original question?
But–”conservative”, are you a Unitarian? That’s the religion of most of the “founding fathers.”
- THE HANKSTER - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 4:10 pm:
Conservative: “On the serious side never said I know all, just that I know Jesus and He knows God and God accepts me by Grace through Jesus.”
Well since you put it that way you are right, everything you say is right! By the way, since you know Jesus can I get an autographed picture for my collection?
- Lincoln Lounger - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 5:08 pm:
Don’t these hard-line conservatives not sound like the last days of the Confederacy?
I’m a Republican who’s never missed an election. What I cannot figure out is the wingnuts preach about wanting government to leave them alone, but they are the first ones peeking in windows and legislating their perceptions of morality. The perfect example was Terri Schiavo.
In a way, I feel sorry for the Peter LaBarberas of the world. They feel the earth slipping from beneath their feet, and they know the end is near.
- The Pragmatist - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 5:19 pm:
I enjoy this blog, regularly, and appreciate the forum. Obviously, there are some very intelligent and well-informed individuals sharing their time and knowledge here…and since I’ve never posted before, I wanted to preface with a word of thanks to Mr. Miller, et al. for the many efforts…
…and especially to “The Conservative” for providing so much ripe, low-hanging fruit…I’m only human and the temptation is great…
That said, I am a gay man, Illinois born-and-raised, gainfully employed in the electronic media, vehemently patriotic and absolutely committed to the defense of my country and our many blessed liberties.
I support the notion of putting this issue before my fellow citizens. In the days to come, it will be incumbent upon me and like-minded persons to make our case. So, in the spirit of democracy and fairness and basic humanity, is it really too much to ask of “The Conservative” or other like-minded reader to take a moment to make a case…one citizen to another…to support a vote in favor of the referendum, should it come before us?
My standards are high: your case must be free of churlish, ad hominem argument and vituperation. And since I don’t recognize cultural proscriptions, thousands of years beyond their relevance and proper context, as a valid impediment to my full participation as a citizen…you can put down that copy of the Old Testament. I can recognize circular reasoning for what it is, thank you very much…
So, I challenge you. Persuade me.
- Doubting Thomas - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 6:19 pm:
To “The Conservative”: Did your pastor really tell you to sign the petition? What kind of pastor would do that? Do you live someplace where people marry their first cousins or something?
Oh, and do you remember when conservatives used to believe in things like “that government governs best which governs least” and “no deficit spending”? I do. It’s funny that runaway government spending and excessive government restrictions on our private lives are the legacy of people like you that call themselves “conservatives”. Conservative, ptuey.
- just a thought - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 6:35 pm:
oooo touchy subject. I only hope those 300,000 people that signed that petition stay away from this years gay pride parade. Just remember you will be out numbered 5 to 1. Plus you really look quite goofy protesting.
- Cal Skinner - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 7:07 pm:
I wish those who think this is a Republican conspiracy would explain why neither the state nor the national party supported gathering the petitions.
- Grubnednarb - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 10:32 pm:
Since the referendum results are not binding on the legislature, it is a cynical effort and hackneyed Republican strategy to attract conservatives to the polling place when they would otherwise sit out this election because of Bush’s dismal performance and/or discontent with the moderate Republican gubernatorial nominee.
My understanding is that the number of petitions submitted wasn’t much above the minimum needed to qualify to be on the ballot.
No matter how hard you try to collect signatures of validly registered voters, a significant percentage will be found invalid if carefully scrutinized and legitimately challenged.
I am looking forward to volunteering on the petition challenge effort instead of just talking about it.
- Taxman - Tuesday, May 9, 06 @ 10:42 pm:
Will the Conservative tell us what church it was where the pastor encouraged them to sign the petition? Doesn’t engaging in political activity put their tax exempt status at risk?
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 8:02 am:
Taxman; Laughing, You show you do not understand, a church can under the law use a per cent of money and time and not violate the law. Besides this is a christian issue, why woulden’t God’s church be heavely involved. We as christians are accountable before God as stewards of out time, money and involvemet. Oh incase you do not know, a pastor has every right to be politically involved as a citizen I have 7 elected committeemen in my church and others and working on more. The Black churches have been far more out spoken from the pulpit but that is okay because they are Democrats. The Protestant churches where the seats of government when this country was founded. Christians are responsible and accountable for their lack of involvement. Church is not just a building. If you attend one of those, then perhaps you should consider changing. The church covers many things, not just praying and taking care of the poor. The real church is a living body and turning the other cheek does not mean tolorating that which is against God’s Word. Enough of this let’s get back to politics.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 8:18 am:
Non-profit organizations cannot engage in any sort of political activity they want, “Conservative”. A pastor acting as the head of a church (churches are usually organized as non-profits) cannot, in her or his capacity as the head of the church, lobby for a certain political candidate, for example. The pastor can, acting as an individual and not as a pastor, lobby for a certain political candidate. So, if your pastor hands out a voter guide for a candidate in church, they have seriously endangered the churches non-profit status.
Now, “Conservative”, where do you go to church? Not saying means you know that your church violates tax laws.
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 8:34 am:
Laughing, get over yourself, typical Liberal. We are well within the law.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 8:43 am:
I don’t believe that you are within the law, and know of several other churches that are not as well. If it is a white protestant congregation, and virulently anti-gay, then it most likely isn’t episcopal, methodist, presbyterian, congregationalist, or united church of christ and it probably isn’t lutheran or church of the brethren. That leaves the literalists, so pentecostal or southern baptist would be my guess. (And it must also be one who doesn’t require it’s members to know much about English grammar, or to think beyond stereotypes.)
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 8:54 am:
You are wrong and not even worth a comment. Really dosen’t matter what you think, we have many lawyers and work with many denominations. The law, that we know!
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 9:17 am:
“Conservative”, you represent several different denominations (or like to think that you do), have a pronouced interest in power, and don’t get enough attention (for gaybashing or other bullying-type actions that you engage in regularly) in your “for real life” so you come on websites like this to find it. You are a white male, probably middle-aged, whose job isn’t particularly demanding, if you have one at all. Life has been something of a disappointment to you, and you blame others for your and the world’s problems. Liberals are a favorite target, but not the only one. You feel the need to separate yourself from African-Americans and other minorities, and really, from anyone who thinks differently from you. Your world is very black and white; people are either with you or against you and there is no middle ground. You don’t seem to care about hearing the stories of people who are different from you, maybe because you think they won’t care about your story, or perhaps because you believe that the world is all about you. I bet you are kind of lonely as a result.
Last but not least, you are afraid to tell anyone what church you go to — quite a profession of “faith”.
I’ll pray for you; I think that you need it much more than anyone targeted by that hurtful petition.
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 9:47 am:
Laughing, You might just be surprised if you knew me, I live in a racially mixed area, work withing the Conservative Hispanic church community, have great relationship with several Conservative Black church leaders, heavely involved in Pro-Life movement and other org. raised two kids, involved in the community, party Chairman, church leader. Your Psych course needs to be taken over. I do not seek reconigition, just the opposite, however when duty calls I serve.Oh and you are wrong on age, I served in Viet Nam and took early retirement from the state. Better look at your crystal again.
- Pete Granata - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 10:24 am:
Conservative: What unit were you in in Vietnam. Which state agency did you work for. What is the the name of your church.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 10:26 am:
No, I am not surprised and I also don’t see how that negates what I noted above. But I will add to that list that you live in Cook County or one of the collar counties, love talking about yourself, and are way too concerned with other people’s sex lives. Oh, and you like to think of yourself as a “man’s man”, and I’ll go out on a limb and say that at least one of your kids is a girl. No where on your list was any mention of a wife, which is interesting. My bet is your ties to the Conservative Hispanic and Black religious communities has something to do with being a Republican chair (precint? county?), and that you may help register them to vote or take them to the polls or some such thing.
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 10:54 am:
You are funny, Seems as though you are the one interested in peoples sex lif. I have never said such a thing. I am involved in all aspects of the conservative social issues because I am a christian. Christianity and politics go hand in hand. I am involved with several church org as well as the political. One thing you are correct on I and many others conduct large scale voter registration drives within several churches. Good christian stewardship. My first call is to do His work, if that leads to political, then it does. No appologies. I do feel sorry that you seem to have a low self worth and a great deal of anger, thinking the world bullies you because you are gay. Perhaps the world just dissagrees with you.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 11:27 am:
So, I think that you must be a Republican Precinct Chair within Cook County.
Tell me, what differentiates you from an Islamist, other than that they worship Allah and read the Koran while you worship God and apparently read some version of the Bible that I haven’t ever seen (thou shalt go forth and register voters - is this the Pat Robertson translation of the Bible?)?
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 11:31 am:
My God lives, theirs is dead.
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 11:34 am:
This is becoming silly, perhaps I am keeping you from polishing your silver.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 12:23 pm:
I guess it is safe to say that no Muslims were involved in your petition effort. Probably no Jews, either? Ditto Hindis, Buddhists, Native Americans, etc.?
What about the Mormons? They don’t really consider themselves Protestants or Christians, do they?
And the Catholics, well, some had to be involved — that would be part of the Conservative Hispanic vote, now wouldn’t it?
Must be hard to be a “conservative” Republican in a state that chose Topinka to be the Republican nominee for Guv. I’ll bet somebody like, say, Mitt Romeny or John Ashcroft would be more to your liking. Or maybe Alan Keyes?
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 1:25 pm:
John is a wonderful Godly man, would be proud to work for him anytime. Rom is to liberal. Not hard to work in a state that chose JBT. Just get to work for Legislators and Congress.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 1:27 pm:
Assembly of God.
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 1:35 pm:
Surprised you mentioned Romeny, he is Mormon and according to your thinking would be ruled out. Keys is a great guy,terrible campaigner.You seem to be obsessed. What happened to talking about the Family marriage act. Well I have to get back to listening to the rest of Rush.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 2:40 pm:
Additional direct conversation about marriage between you and I would not be a worthwhile endeavor. Neither one of us is part of the fungible middle. And, while I am certain that both of our views on the subject have religious foundations, I assure you that the foundations are quite different, including very different views of what the Bible has to say about all of it.
On this issue, you are part of the opposition. That doesn’t make you a bad person. But I generally do not understand what kind of person would deny another what I think is an important human right and religious sacrament. Look, I can be baptised, confirmed, take communion in and be buried by just about any church that I would chose to join. And they will all take my money, trust me. But there are a lot who would not allow me to marry the partner of my choice.
And some churches are taking it a step further by doing things like passing this petition around. It’s in my interests to know who those churches are, and what are their ties to politicians.
Thanks for the chat.
- The Conservative - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 3:15 pm:
I hate to dissagre with you. If you where to attend Boble beleiving church, you would be welcomed. However if you where to continue practicing your sin be it either living with a man or a woman without marriage, after a reasonable time your actions would be condemed and probably asked to leave as you would not be allowed to violate the church laws which are in agreement with God’s law. This is consistant and is God’s love. Remember before you twist this I said provided your are making no attempt to change your behavior.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 3:31 pm:
I’m curious, “The Conservative,” but would a divorced person be allowed in that church who refused to remarry the person he or she divorced? This is a legit question, not snark.
- Doubting Thomas - Wednesday, May 10, 06 @ 4:15 pm:
God loves all sinners (which basically means all people, b/c there isn’t one of us who hasn’t sinned and won’t sin again in one way or another). And, all believers will be saved.
Yes, I might get kicked out of some churches after a period of time. I guess some believe that they are without sin and justified in pointing the finger and punishing those whom they believe to be sinners.
Some take it one step further and say that because you are gay, you cannot marry, and because you cannot marry, you cannot be sexually active. So, either be chaste and repent and join our church (ala ex-gay movement and gay bar visitor Jon Paulk), or burn in hell. All of that seems terribly inconsistent with the kind and loving God that I know, and the command that we should love our neighbors as ourselves, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
Not letting same-sex couples marry seems to me to be denying them a basic political freedom and religious sacrament. As Dick Cheney said, “Freedom means freedom for everybody”, and on that point, he is right.
Nice chatting with you. Now I REALLY must go.
- Sky - Tuesday, Nov 7, 06 @ 10:45 pm:
i think that gay marriage should be legalized if you love someone does it really make it any differnt? Yes some people look down on it, but then agian people have alot of oppions on alot of other things too. So just stop all this fighting and just LEAGALIZED it already. Gay marriage isn’t hurting anyone if anything its making things better so just stop the drama and say YESS!