The Capitol Fax Blog » Question of the Day

Wednesday, Jul 9, 2008

posted by Kevin Fanning

* There has been a lot of moaning over the Cook County Sales Tax increase, but aside from a Palatine secession, there haven’t been many policies discussed to do much about it.

Enter Lieutenant Governor Pat Quinn and Cook County Commissioner Forrest Claypool:

Illinois Lieutenant Governor Pat Quinn and Cook County Commissioner Forrest Claypool are calling for a state law that would give voters the right to challenge new taxes through ballot initiatives.

[…]

Claypool and Quinn are also calling for a constitutional amendment that would let voters challenge new state taxes. They do says legislators ought to cut government spending before asking tax payers for more money.

* Question: What do you think of the ideas?

- posted by Kevin Fanning

71 Comments

- Plutocrat03 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:30 am:
Sure why not?

The voters should be able to challenge any aspect of their government’s behavior.

- Ghost - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:32 am:
If only we had some kind of electoral system where we could deicide by voting who we wanted to be in charge of setting tax rates. The we could use such a “process” to elect officials to handle these issues on behalf of the people.

In other words this is a horrible idea. Quinn is mini-blago, more interested in the press opp and sound bite then effective leadership. We elect leaders to make hard decisions for us. If we think the decisions are bad we can elect different leaders. BUT those leaders are responsible for the big picture as well. A Tax decision is more complicated then yes or no on that question. Taxes also imapct funding all kinds of support, medical and other services. So lets put every budget item to a vote. Every taxpayer can vote on which things to fund, and how much to spend. If the hospital does not get enough popular vote, then we just shut it down. We will put every decision to a vote so that voters micrmanage goverment. Under Quinns logic we are repalcing our elected leaders with mob rule. If Quinn think the leadership is spending to much, then he can push for new leaders. But transplanting difficult decisions to the elctorate is more abdiction then responsible governance.

Sending decisions piecemal to the voters based upon how popular the soundbite on the topic is probaly the most irresponsible form of leadership and governance we could concoct.

- nonewtaxes - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:36 am:
they should just put a referendum vote on the ballot to get rid of home rule or have a con-con where home rule can be repealed.

- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:37 am:
Instead of piling on a new law that helps control a bad law, just pull the bad law. That law is home rule. Get rid of it!

Vote Con-Con in 2008!

- jj - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:40 am:
I support - down with taxation to pay for corruption.

- Rob_N - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:48 am:
Sen. Dan Kotowski was out ahead on this issue with his tax cap proposal from a few months back.

Not as soundbyte-worthy as his neighboring Senator Murphy’s support for secession, but a step in the right direction.

- Anon - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:50 am:
It appears to me that Pat Quinn is spending alot of time getting his mug more visisble at funerals, troop homecomings and PR ploys now more then ever.

- Captain America - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:51 am:
I was opposed to the Cook County sales tax increase because of Todd Stroger’s inability and unwillingness to reform and streamline County government, not becasue the County didn’t need additional revenue.

However, I think that some of the “hype” about the “highest sales tax” in the country has been overblown. We get “nickeled and dimed’ by sales taxes and other taxes/userfees because income taxes are too low and becasue we are overdependent on property taxes to fund local education.

For example, we may have the highest sales tax, but New York State has much higher income taxes than Illinois. New York City may even have an income tax??

The State has a structural deficit - an income tax increase is desperately needed to establish fiscal stability. I am in favor of an income tax increase, coupled with some property tax relief. I assume cities, counties, and municipalities might get a share of a State income tax increase.

I am adamantly opposed to the Quinn-Claypool constitutional amendment. It’s suffioiently hard to get the legislature to enact tax reform already. We dont’ need another barrier to fiscal sanity by subjecting proposed tax increases to voter challenges. We elect a legislators/a legislature,such as they are, to make these policy and fiscal decisions. Legislators can be “recalled” by voters if they make bad decisions whne they run for relection.

My solution would be to lock Ralph Martire, and Steve Shnorf, Charles Whelan and a few other notable fiscal gurus of various political stripes in a room to slug it out on state and local government fiscal policy. But I’m sure that our elected officals would subsequently screw things up when asked to ratify a rational budget and tax reform plan.

- Anon - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:56 am:
Interesting aside, when Quinn was Treasurer Forrest was Deputy Treasurer for a time.

- Six Degrees of Separation - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:00 am:
If these tools were available to the taxpayers and voters, we would probably see an interesting dichotomy in IL:

Generally electing those who are in favor of expanding government programs, while denying them the cash resources to carry out their mission.

The end result, after all is said and done, might be about the same as now, only in a more extreme version: Expand programs, borrow to the hilt, worry about the bill tomorrow.

- Vote Quimby! - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:03 am:
==Pat Quinn is spending alot of time getting his mug more visisble at funerals==

He has attended nearly all Illinois solider funerals since the start of the Iraq War…is it six years ago already? At least that part is not new.

- yinn - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:05 am:
In the short term we have to repeal home rule in the communities where it is being abused. Long term, I’m for fixing it. Bring on the ConCon and git ‘er done!

barbcityteaco.com

- wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:10 am:
I believe in the republican system. Direct democracy is okay for New England villages and PTOs, but we’re a large ongoing concern and effective governance must come from an elected executive and legislature.

Having said that, I like Capt. America’s idea about getting some experienced wizards to spitball some tax restructuring ideas in anticipation of a Con-Con. If Con-Con doesn’t happen, at least there would be a blueprint to start the debate.

It seemed to me before Blago, there were the makings of an income tax/sales tax/property tax swap. That should be revisited.

From my own barber shop, diner and tavern conversations, the state income tax is the least hated tax in our current mix. Never comes up.

- jerry 101 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:12 am:
against.

The best way to resolve the tax situation is to vote against the present Board Members.

Todd Stroger’s already done. He’ll get axed. It’s time to blame and organize against the Board members who allow the county situation to get out of hand.

But, the most important thing is to get government to quit nickel and diming us. We need to suck it up and raise property and income taxes, and get rid of all the stupid regressive nickel and dime crap.

- Steve - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:13 am:
It’s an interesting idea.An even better one would be no tax increases are allowed to be voted on or take effect unless 60 days before an election.

- Bruno Behrend - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:23 am:
nonewtaxes,

You can repeal Home Rule now, if you can meet the high signature requirements.

Illinois version of Home Rule is particularly Orwellian, as it does NOT empower local citizens, but only local Political Bosses.

Ghost,

Spare me the stuff about electing leaders to make the hard decisions “for us” and how we can elect “different leaders.”

Who? Lisa Madigan, Bill Brady or Bill Daley? Leadership has gone from bad to worse, and I’d like to see a scenario where we get a better Governor or legislature absent empowering citizens to make more choices for themselves and their localities.

I trust the electorate with “difficult decisions” more than I do any “leader” on the horizon. To argue that giving citizens “a say” on “every” (or even more) decisions is “irresponsible” simply makes no sense.

You are, in effect, arguing that the electorate is too stupid to make good policy - even when empowered to do so. We’ve seen that ideology in action for 38 years under this Constitution.

“Trust the people” may be a tad Pollyannaish, but “Don’t trust the people” is morally suspect.

Trusting the 12-18% of the primary voters to choose from a generally low class of toadies pre-selected by political bosses to rubber-stamp their edicts has proven itself unworkable in Illinois.

It’s time for giving the citizens a shot at these issues. They can’t do any worse.

- Joe Schmoe - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:24 am:
Con Con’s #1 job — get rid of home rule and the local’s abuse of that power! The you will have true representation.

- Joe D's Cousin Ralph - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:24 am:
Its a great idea. This will force more accountability than uncontested elections will, which is pretty much what we have with most of the people who vote for these increases. Want to let politicians pad the payrolls and handout largesse, then vote to pay for it out of your own pocket. The wailing and nashing of teeth reminds me of an old Southern saying, “You know whose pig is kicked by the squelling.”

- Ghost is right - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:34 am:
I’m with Ghost on this one. This is the stupidest, most unrealistic idea about controlling taxes that I’ve heard out of these two “Good Government” showboaters. The worst part is that neither of them is dumb enough to think this is a good idea. This is purely a political ploy that they’re hoping voters are stupid enough to buy into.

Pat Quinn has no power and no serious responsibilities as Lt. Governor. Illinois is very aware of the fact that Quinn can say whatever he wants and won’t have his ability to get things done in government compromised. And why is that, kids? Because he doesn’t actually have to do anything of much consequence. He chooses exactly how he spends his time. There are no choices he has to make in his position that impact people in a direct way.

However, I think “Mini Blago” is an innacurate description of Quinn. Blago is manipulative, vengeful, dishonorable, and lacks true leadership qualities. The decisions Blago makes affect many peoples’ lives. Quinn just gallivants around working on his pet projects and issues and nothing he does directly affects anyone’s life.

There’s a huge difference between the two of them.

- What planet is he from again? - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:36 am:
Aren’t there states (California comes to mind for some reason) that do exactly that, and (IIRC) it doesn’t work there?

- Bruno Behrend - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:39 am:
My solution would be to lock Ralph Martire, and Steve Shnorf, Charles Whelan and a few other notable fiscal gurus of various political stripes in a room to slug it out on state and local government fiscal policy.

and

I like Capt. America’s idea about getting some experienced wizards to spitball some tax restructuring ideas in anticipation of a Con-Con. If Con-Con doesn’t happen, at least there would be a blueprint to start the debate.

What is it with this absurd penchant for packing a bunch of ‘insiders’ into a room to solve our problems.

If you asked most citizens for their input, leaving these decisions to the likes of Martire and Schnorf IS our problem.

Any increase in the income tax that doesn’t come with permanent and substantial property tax relief will be the last nail in the coffin of Illinois’ rapidly failing business climate.

I mean really guys, let’s just bring back the divine right of Kings. Even that would be superior to the “death by Bureaucracy” that Martire and Schnorf produce for us.

- The Curmudgeon - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 11:43 am:
It’s a terrible idea — and I’m as anti-tax as anyone ever was.

Unfortunately, we get the leaders we deserve. We should vote people out who enact tax increases to which we object… but we won’t.

I have a nickel here that says Todd Stroger gets reelected, if he runs. Heck, I’ll even wager a nickel that Blagojevich gets reelected, if he runs again, and isn’t indicted before Election Day.

If Lt. Gov. Quinn is looking for an amendment to push, how about admitting that his baby, the Cutback Amendment, was a huge mistake and leading the fight to repeal it?

- wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 12:06 pm:
Bruno, I don’t have all the answers. I don’t know what I don’t know. Usually, when I have questions, I turn to a variety of people and sources that have more knowledge on a subject than me. I take it all in, consider it, then make up my own mind.

Dismissing people who have been in the trenches and have institutional knowledge because they are “insiders” is silly and elitist, in a perverse sort of way.

- Ghost - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 12:13 pm:
Bruno complaining that you are unhappy with the leadership does not make a logical sequitor of mob rule. Your argument is that the people can not be trusted to elect good leaders, but we can trust them to make good decision on the minutia of governemtn operations? Bruno it is actualy your argument which says people can not be trusted. The people, by majority vote, elected each of those leaders. So you are saying the people can not be trusted to elect good leaders, and the solution is to put decisions more directly in the hands of the same people who deicded to elect those leaders?

You repharsed my discussion incorrectly to make an invalid point. My discussion is that the operation of government is complex, and a system of piecemeal votes looking at overly narrow points leads to innefective decisionmaking.

Vaters looking at a single point in isolation are not able to effectively managing lal the associated parts effected by the deicsion. Your premise is trust the voters to make the right call on taxes. I trust them even more then you do, I trust them to make the right decision on electing leaders to represen them in making decision. Since we trust the voters to make this right deicsion their is no need to parse out each soundbite issue for reconsideration. Our trustworthy voters will just vote in new leaders if they find the overall operation of government does not meet their approval.

- Anonymous45 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 12:31 pm:
no other elected offical bothers to show up at the military funerals do they?–does someone from Veteran’s Affairs show face? I say it’s a decent, though photo opportunistic thing to do…

- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 12:49 pm:
Bad idea. For most of the reasons stated above.
It is sooooo easy to vote to lower taxes when there are no immediate repercussions.

Go into any room of people and ask them if their taxes are too high, and most people will say yes. Come back ten minutes later and they will be complaining about the condition of the road, the state of education, etc.

I would much rather have Pat Quinn work on ways to educate the electorate and get them more involved in the process we already have. If he really wants change, he should work to lower the requirements for candidates to get on the ballot, return to the three rep system, put some form of public financing in place. Those measures might get more people to run for office, and that would shake up the system.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 12:58 pm:
Ghost and Capt America

Both of you are missing the point. The Quinn/Claypool idea is a good one. As for the Income Tax swap for a decrease in property tax, dream on. The machine will find ways to spend the revenue from the income tax while also maintaining the property tax rate, so if history is any lesson, don’t count on the “swap.” Another point, what’s wrong with alowing voters the right to put tax issues to a vote? What is wrong with forcing bloated, corrupt, governments like Stroger’s and Madigan/Blago to actually live within their means?

As for any one calling Forrest Claypool a grandstander, all I can say that he was right. There is no doubt in my mind that he would have been a much better leader than what we have now. It took Madigan, Daley, Bill Clinton, the unions, Blago, Jones all they had to beat the guy by 40,000 votes. So clearly the guy is no grandstander, but a serious threat the to corrupt pols. who are running the state and county into the ground.

- One of the 35 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
Ghost’s analysis is right on. In a representative Republic such as ours (no, its not a democracy) we elect people to make decisions for us. If we want to vote on every detail of governmental operation, then why have any elected officials at all? In this age of electronic mass communication we could just take a poll on each item; majority wins. But God help us if we move to such a system. Who among us has the time and energy necessary to become informed on each and every issue? We have our own lives and jobs to attend to. Some may argue the people couln’t screw up State Government any more than it is, but I believe we could. Just go to any local city council or village board meeting and listen to the comments from the public. At times it can be down right scary.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:04 pm:
One more point. I don’t know what Forrest Claypool has in the mind for the future, but many people I know appreciate the fact that the guy has the guts to take on Stroger/Daley/Madigan. The man has courage and I am glad there is a pol out there who actually has my interests at heart.

- Team Sleep - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:08 pm:
Yes. I like this idea. Voters should have many options - not just voting officials out of office or waiting for a powerful chairman or official to die. If you can get enough signatures for a referendum, the initiative should go forward. A vote against the recent tax increases would also force Stroger and Friends to reconsider how business is done.

- One of the 35 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:10 pm:
Home Rule is not the problem. If you elect inept people you will get bad government! Home Rule or not!

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:13 pm:
Ghost is not right. The argument is a copout. The fact is elections in Cook County are decided in the Primary. The fact that Madigan has made the move of the February 2nd permanent for the 2010 primary to keep turnout low is another indication how the machine manipulates the election process. True, voters are ultimately responsible for who is elected, but the machine puts every impediment in place to ensure low turnout. I would argue that “we” are limited as to our choices. Having a ballot initiative is healthy and the people should have the right to petition their government. Especially given that all three levels of our government: state, county, and city are awash in corruption investigations and FBI raids.

- AH Mang - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:20 pm:
Rob — Just a subtle point I want to make here: Sen. Matt Murphy has never said on the record that he supports secession.

Apparently he wants it to appear like he is to he can benefit from all the Stroger hatin’ going on in Palatine, ect., but all he’s said on the record is that he supports legislation to allow the Cook County municipalities to do so if the voters support it.

- 2for2 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:21 pm:
The idea looks good on paper but the reality of governing is that sometimes elected officials need to make unpopular decisions because it is necessary. This type of proposal will not lead to good government. Rather it will make it impossible for government to function. I understand the anger with Cook County sales tax but knee-jerk reactions rarely lead to sound public policy.

And as for Quinn, he can shout as loud as he wants on his displeasure with Blago, it will never erase the fact that he sat silent for 5 years while Rod and his team ran wild in state government.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:37 pm:
2 for 2

Government already is disfunctional and gridlocked, mainly because of egos not substantive policy disagreements. This is not a “knee jerk” reaction, in fact it is quite sensible. If the voters of Cook County want to repeal the tax they can petition, get the requisite signatures to satisfy the legal requirement and put the tax recision to a vote. If it passes, it actually forces Stroger and the county board to make cuts. So from a public policy standpoint it is pretty strait foward.

- ute - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:47 pm:
If we just give Quinn another thirty years of fighting against government, he will finally solve the problems!

- Ghost - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:53 pm:
Don smith, if the ballot is “controlled by the “machine” then every initiative will be controlled by the “machine” as well. If your argument is that voters have no real control, then it does not matter what they are voting for. Also you did not really address how the entire elctorate can look at a single issue in isolation, just voting on that point, without being called upon to address all the attendant issues at the same time. Voters addressing only encapsulated sound bite topics are not considiring the operation of their government at all, they are responding to pressure campaigns which deceive about what is being decided by narowlly focusing decision into overlysimpliefied topics.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 1:53 pm:
Ute,

AT least he is trying, that’s more than I can say for Madigan, Blago, Stroger, or Daley.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:02 pm:
Ghost,

I respectfully disagree. I also didn’t say the voters have no control, I said the machine goes to great lengths to controlling turnout in the primary. I did say that ultimately it is still up to the voters to stand outside February 2nd 2010 and vote. History shows the machine is successful in this pursuit. However, I think the machine would have a more difficult time controlling the initiative process (which explains why we don’t currently have one). Let’s say you need 100,000 signatures to get the repeal of the sales tax on the ballot, a well organized effort can certainly achieve that. In fact Quinn is the master at this game. So, I do think the initative process is the way to go.

- Steve - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:08 pm:
It’s extremely difficult to make any sort of changes when powerful vested interests don’t want change.I doubt we’ll get any constitutional changes soon.I hope I’m wrong.As far as Cook County goes,I doubt John Daley or Stroger feel any sort of tax revolt yet.We may see Stroger’s original plans for a sales tax increase in the future.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:13 pm:
Ghost

I also don’t think the sales tax is an encapsulated sound bite either. The sound operation of goverment is not achieved by raising taxes every time times are tough. Especially by governments headed by leaders who lack credibility. Government services are important. What is also important is our regional economy and the fact that the Sales Tax is regressive and hits the poor very hard.

- Rob_N - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:14 pm:
AH Mang,

Ah, semantics.

Most folks would consider introducing legislation allowing for secession as “support”.

Other folks would also consider some of his quotes on the topic to appear as if the Senator favors secession, statements such as, “I don’t see why we should be tied to a county that we don’t want to be part of,” and “But … shouldn’t we have the right if we think we can do it better, to have the chance? And why do we have to stay tied to a county we don’t want to be part of just because they’re bigger than us. It seems un-American.” (And yes, AH Mang, those are links to a Daily Herald article currently housed Sen. Murphy’s own website.)

But you are correct that Sen. Murphy does not appear to have specifically said, ‘Palatine should secede from Cook County,’ it just really, really, really, really sounds that way. ;)

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:15 pm:
I was at the City Club when Donna Dunnings, after the Stroger passed the sales tax, that county government might need even more taxes.

- Vote Quimby! - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:46 pm:
I agree Quinn should acknowledge his amendment to whittle reps down by 1/3 has proven to be a mistake and should be repealed.
And that’ll happen when DCN calls for a con-con.

- Bruno Behrend - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 2:53 pm:
Wordslinger and Ghost,

Your analysis is well-written and cogent, but fails the reality test. We have awful leadership in Illinois, with no real prospect of improvement.

Your “trust” in the people to elect better leaders fine, but only theoretical. The reality is that for a whole host of reasons, there is no such opportunity.

When I read your (and 1 of 35s) thoughts, I find myself wishing I could have the 3 of you on my radio show to debate this stuff. You are all clearly thoughtful and intelligent folks, who have become so thoughtful and intelligent that you wish to cede all these “tough decisions” to a class of people who are not particularly thoughtful nor intelligent. (our political class)

No one is arguing for “direct democracy” here. We are merely arguing that when government breaks down (as it has in both Cook and IL), the people have the ability to step in and change it.

Any one decent reform

Recall
Ballot Initiative
Ending Gerrymandering
Back to 3 member districts and cumulative voting
Legislative reforms like forcing a vote on bill
the “Show me” amendment etc etc

…might be enough to improve this state.

The sad fact is that you will not get ANY (not even one) of those reforms until citizens are re-empowered through a convention.

In the meantime, Quinn and Claypool ought to be congratulated for this idea, even if it is a publicity stunt.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 3:01 pm:
Quimby,

Quinn’s amendment to whittle reps down by 1/3 has not proven to be a mistake. The real mistake is the lack of independence and courage exhibited by our elected officials. Too much power is in the hands of Speaker Madigan and Emil Jones. The fact that these two men control the majority of their parties reps. and senators speaks volumes why government has become so dysfunctional. The fact that Quinn does what he does, I for one am thankful.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 3:03 pm:
Well said Bruno

- Amy - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 3:57 pm:
so, Axelrod’s firm, with which Claypool works, represents the
anti con con position, and now Claypool proposes some amendment to the current constitution which can address a money situation, helpful to the firm’s client’s postion. or is that too much a Kass type view of the mayor’s former chief of staff?

- PhilCollins - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 4:25 pm:
During the past 10 days, I’ve heard many people complain because the Cook Co. Board increased the county sales tax rate from 0.75% to 1.75%. The state sales tax rate is 6.25%. Everyone who is mad at the county board should be more mad at all of the state legislators who voted for the latest state sales tax rate increase, in 2005.

- steve schnorf - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 4:26 pm:
Terrible and terrible. We have a representative form of government for reasons. Our founding fathers were wise. Voters are holding a referendum on tax increases and everything else city councils and the GA do every time they go to the polls.

- steve schnorf - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 4:55 pm:
Bruno, I realize that you think I’m a big part of the problem, and that you have faith in direct democracy. Unfortunately for your theory, neither I nor Ralph Martire have ever enacted a single tax increase. But, I can’t make your faith in the citizenry jive with your unwillingness to trust them to elect representatives.

You want to eliminate school districts and school boards, because you don’t trust the voters. Exactly which little men or women DO you trust to do what?

Direct democracy is difficult on a large scale, and is one of the reasons our founding fathers (surely you know “original intent”) put together a representative form of government. Would you hold referenda on judges’ sentencing decisions, on State’s Attorneys decisions whether to prosecute or not, Assessors’ decision on valuations, school board decisions on hiring and firing? How about the football schedule. Surely you wouldn’t trust them with that?

This sort of pap is populist drivel, demagoguery of the worst kind. It makes great press pops and sound bites, and is a sorry excuse for working hard for good government. I expect nothing more than this from the people who practice it.

- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:07 pm:
Steve Schnorf - the smartest republican I know.

And Don Smith - you don’t get it. The effect of the 1/3 cutback WAS to concentrate power in the hands of the leaders. Before then, the odd men out 3rd reps from most districts were the mavericks - the Dem from a Republican area and the Republican from a Dem area. It made for diverse caucuses - the Rep caucus always had Chicagoans and the Dem caucus always had suburbanites and farmers. With the cutback, caucuses became more homogenous and the power of the party leaders increased. Huge, huge mistake, which Quinn has never owned up to or been made accountable for. And like this latest idiocy, he latched onto it because it “sounded great”, his only touchstone for any policy statement.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:07 pm:
Amy,

I think the conspiracy theorist convention is next week. Last I time I saw Axelrod, he was on the cover of Time Magazine helping some guy named Barack Obama get elected President. If you want to spread b.s. at least make it good b.s.

- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:08 pm:
C’mon, amy made a good point.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:20 pm:
Schnorf,

You make blogging a truly fun and interesting exercise with your historical revisionist tendancies. SO you are telling me and the rest of the blogging world that having three state reps per district harkened back to “the good ole’ days” when there were true “mavericks.” Continuing your logic, then the state house was a place where the machine had little or less control than today. Funny, I don’t recall that time as free from corruption and rancorous politics. I would argue that because Illinois was more a two party state that any independent thought was more due to that than the three member district construct. I don’t think Madigan would have any less control over the house with three member districts than the current construct. Castigating Quinn as an “idiot” because he is attempting to give voters a way to rescind the onerous sales tax is immature and unseemly.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:23 pm:
Rich,

YOu are right, AMy my bad. I think the Claypool is disengenious argument is passe given his position the last six or whatever years.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:36 pm:
Schnorf,

You say that attempts of instituting ballot initiatives is “pap” and “populist drivel.” THe founding fathers depending whether you are from the Hamiltonian or Jeffersonian school had varying opinions on the need for dirct Democracy, so again your historical interpretation is off. In fact many decisions were made in town hall settings. Unless you think New England town hall style of government was a joke, I think the historical precedent is there. As for initiatives for football games and the like, the law can be written to address only tax and spending issues. It is not that hard. Pissed off people can get 100,000 signatures to put the tax recision on the ballot and people can vote for it or against it. Your hyperbole not withstanding, I think this a good tool to wake up politicians who don’t work hard and ignor the will of the people.

- Kevin Fanning - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:38 pm:
Don,
I defenitely think that the 1/3 reduction hurt debate and dissent. Not only for the reasons steve mentioned, but also becuase it helped to consolidate power in the party chairs. I’ve talked to several state legislators who served in the seventies, and they said that the power structure is completely different. Now that there are fewer legislators, power that used to reside with committee chairs and even individuals has been gobbled up by the chamber leaders. With them controlling committee assignments, bill decisions, and most importantly campaign funds, there is little autonomy left. There is no longer a single republican state senator from chicago. The environment is very polarized, and even more heirarchical.

- 2for2 - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:38 pm:
Someone call the fire department, Don Smith’s computer is on fire.

Amy, great point. Steve Schnorf, great points as always. The idea makes an easy sound bite and headline (classic Quinn) but is just simply a bad idea (Again classic Quinn).

If all of Quinn’s ideas had come to fruition over the years we would be living in chaos. The funny thing is that actually like him a lot. But he has been going this junk since the 70s, with the exception of the 1st 5 years as lt. gov.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:45 pm:
PhilCollins,

The reason why people are up in arms over Stroger’s Sales Tax Increase is 1)Stroger lied. 2) Stroger’s budget is a mess. 3) The FBI raided the county last year for a reason. 4) The economy is not doing well. 5) Stroger is cutting services while raising taxes, all the while giving pay raises to friends and family. 6)Fitch just downgraded the county’s bond rating. 7) Stroger still hires people to inspect picknic benches while cutting healthcare. 8) Stroger used Homeland Security money to upgrade his gas guzzling SUV. 9) Suburban businesses are going to be hurt. 10) Stroger is aloof.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:51 pm:
2 for 2,

You mean we are not living in chaos? So the kids being killed at a record pace is a sign that we are not living in chaos? So, the fact that we have FBI investigations at every level of government in Illinois and we are not living in chaos? We are likely to have back to back governors indicted and you say we are not living in chaos? Yeah, Quinn is like Don Quixote, and there is no doubt he has mastered the populist approach, but for you, Schnorf, Amy, Elvis, or however to degrade the guy for trying is unfair.

- Don Smith - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 5:57 pm:
Kevin Fanning,

I hear your thoughtful point of view. My point is that politics is polarized throughout the country and while I agree with your point about the power of party chairs, I think Madigan would find a way with his disciplined troops to still control the house. I think we all agree that there is stunning lack of independence that has in turn led to gridlock. I am just saying that given the time we live in and the political realities, Quinn and Claypool’s shouldn’t be dismissed as “pap” or populist gimmickry.

- wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 7:09 pm:
A couple of thoughts:

I suggest everyone read their Federalist Papers. Hamilton, Jay and Madison were just as scared of direct democracy as they were of despots. Republicanism was not instituted because people can always be trusted to do the right thing, but because they’re human and they can be swayed by passion for short periods of time to do rash things.

God knows I don’t get my way all the time in public affairs. But that’s okay. Republicanism, and separation of powers, protect us all from the mob and the dictator. No one can do too much damage.

To borrow from Churchill, representative democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others. And from Truman: If you want the trains to run on time, move to a Fascist state. Take a look around the planet. Hit your history books. Believe it.

I’m fascinated by definitions. Lot of talk here about “The Machine.” When I was a kid, it was the Cook County Democratic Party, chairman Richard J. Daley, Mayor of Chicago, who ran everything in Chicago, and Cook County and the Dem Cook County reps in Springfield and Washington.

Who’s The Machine now? Do you think Rich Daley tells Mike Madigan what to do? Or Emil Jones? Madigan and Jones don’t talk. Does anyone have any influence over Blago? What about Ed Burke slating all those judges? What is this Machine you all speak of?

Whatever it is, Quinn and Claypool aren’t a part of it?

- Bill - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 7:41 pm:
So Bruno doesn’t trust the voting public to select their leaders at the polls but does trust them to elect delegates who will somehow miraculously change our state for the better. I guess that means no taxes, no public services, no public education. Let’s just rely on “business” in their new friendly climate to take care of all of us working slobs with no oversight or protections. Anybody who doesn’t agree with his point of view ,like Schnorf or Martire is either stupid or corrupt. We are all part of the problem and only Bruno and John and their, neo-libertarian, right wing ilk know the solution. Listen carefully to what Bruno says, writes, and broadcasts. That is the best argument against a con con.

- steve schnorf - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 7:44 pm:
DS, I appreciate all the attention, but I don’t remember my posts saying anything about three member districts one way or the other. I do confess it is one of Bruno’s ideas that I do agree with. BTW, I also think bullet voting would have to be part of the package for it to work best.

- Amy - Wednesday, Jul 9, 08 @ 10:21 pm:
There’s the combine, and then there’s the new combine. The new combine is what Axelrod helms and Claypool is a part of that. Distracting our eyes with all their shine and claims of
reform, working for Mayor Daley, putting up iron fences….

- Anonymous - Thursday, Jul 10, 08 @ 7:53 am:
Yeah, I’m the one who asserted that eliminating 3 member districts (and bullet voting) strengthened the leaders’ hands, to the detriment of the process. But I preceded it by calling Steve Schnorf the smartest republican I know, so he got tagged with my comments (with which he apparently agrees). Sorry for the confusion, Steve.

- Don Smith - Thursday, Jul 10, 08 @ 8:42 am:
Wordslinger,

Yes, you are giving the federalist position by alluding to Madison and Hamilton, but the Jeffersonian and Jackson side of the equation advocated direct democracy. In the case of taxes and spending, particularly in Illinois where there is little transperancy, I think the initiative idea is a plausible policy option, that would produce a change in bureaucratic behavior. In Cook County’s case it would force the board and Stroger to live within the parameters of the fiscal limitations imposed by the recission of the sales tax.

- Don Smith - Thursday, Jul 10, 08 @ 8:55 am:
AMy,

I take back my apology. I am sure you are a nice person, but you are a little off. I think Claypool has more the proven his reformist credentials. Let’s see he’s lead the charge and beaten back two tax increases. He was the first county pol. to expose the fact that the county was cooking its books and covering up the bureau of health deficit. He was also the most aggressive in speaking out about the abuse of children at the JTDC. He proposed an alternative budget two years ago that cut patronage jobs and saved doctor, nursing, and prosecutor jobs. In that budget he also saved union jobs, which SEIU never acknowledges. He along with Quigley lead the charge to clean up the FOrrest Preserve. I could go on and on. If he is so tight with Daley as you so incorrectly assert, then why did the Mayor support Lechowicz back in 2002. The Mayor along with Madigan, Jones, Blago.,the unions all worked very hard to defeat Claypool in 2006. The fact that Claypool is in the news just about every day it seems, means the guy is doing something right. SO he works for Axelrod, so what.I am pretty sure you won’t be seeing the Mayor embracing Forrest or inviting over for a cup of tea. The Mayor is proping up Stroger and that is clear to see.

- Bruno Behrend - Thursday, Jul 10, 08 @ 10:07 am:
Bill and all,

First, I’ve never called Steve Schnorf or Martire “stupid” or “corrupt.” (or, if such was implied in the past, I’ve apologized)

My beef with Martire is that he’s a promoter of extremely high taxes, most all of which he wants to go the most protected (and IMO, corrupt) monopoly in the State - “Big Education” (just like big oil, but with out the oversight)

All I know of Steve is that he worked for Edgar, and generally argues that, as bad as things are, giving citizens more say in things (school choice, lower taxes, etc.) will some how make things much worse. I find such arguments very weak.

Me and my “neo-libertarian ilk” (what ever that is) are merely making the point that the gridlock and obscenely poor leadership in Illinois is a function of the awful Illinois Constitution, and whether you are left, right or middle, no positive change will come to Illinois absent a convention.

Bill’s references to implied to “business” interests shows just how useless the left/right ideological battles have become.

Teacher’s unions and the Administrative lackeys that cover for them have become “big business,” and all the appeals regarding poor poor teachers and “our children” can’t put lipstick on that pig.

Further, Illinois business interests are nearly as bought-off and craven as the public sector, as they seem happy to support “CapitOL Bills” that give their bigger members building and road contracts while the smaller businesses and entrepreneurs are squeezed out of the state.

When both craven business interests AND greedy teacher’s unions are against a ConCon and the right of citizens to place issues on the ballot, you all ought to know that voting ‘yes’ is in YOUR individual interest.
____

Both Bill and Steve S. raise one seemingly salient point that should be addressed (again)

Bill wrote: So Bruno doesn’t trust the voting public to select their leaders at the polls but does trust them to elect delegates who will somehow miraculously change our state for the better.

This is easily addressed. Most of you reading this could NEVER get elected state rep. or sen. in your districts without kissing the ring of the party bosses in that district. You probably COULD get elected delegate.

The current system is designed to protect incumbents and prevent independent minded people - regardless of party - from getting elected.

With delegate races, you have 118 essentially open seats that will likely be voted on in a “non-partisan” fashion. In this current climate, anyone associated with the past 38 years will be easy targets. They are, after all, the direct cause of what ails Illinois.

Independents will have a field day, and voters will be very interested in electing people NOT associated with the 2 parties or the various interest groups bankrupting Illinois.

You should all find it highly ironic that the “Special Interests” are the ones promoting the weak argument that “special interests will control the convention.”

You see, Bill and Steve, I actually DO trust the people to elect better representatives. However, under the current regime/crappy constitution, the voters stay home because they rightly see that showing up at the polls on primary day doesn’t offer them very much.

Thanks for telling people to read my stuff and listen to my show, Bill. Always good to hear from you and your ilk.

Pingback Debating the Constitutional Convention - A Primer - Thursday, Jul 10, 08 @ 5:09 pm:
[…] One excellent place for debate is the blogosphere, and few do that sphere as well as Rich Miller. He has a large commentariat, and they raise just about every issue under the sun regarding Constitutional Convention. We’ve maintained a pretty good presence there, and if you want to read some good debates, you can go here (59 comments), and here (70 comments). […]

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