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Impeachment watch
Wednesday, Dec 17, 2008 - Posted by Rich Miller * 2:15 pm - Adjourned until 10 o’clock tomorrow morning. * 2:14 pm - Currie: Tomorrow’s hearing will focus on whether the governor has exceeded his authority on administrative rules, plus FOIA stuff. * 2:12 pm - Rep. Durkin: We have the right to accept hearsay. It’s up to the Senate to decide whether or not to use it. * 2:06 pm - Genson on where to draw the line on impeachment: “I would offer for your consideration that the line should be based on evidence… due process.. and confrontation (of witnesses).” “Sitting there listening to hearsay upon hearsay is inappropriate.” * 2:01 pm - Genson: Ali Ata is a convicted perjurer. “He pled guilty with the idea that he, Mr. Ata, was going to be able to ask for probation… anything he says has no value for your consideration because you are dealing with a convicted perjurer.” Neither of the plea agreements of Ata and Joe Cari are sworn. They’re signed but not sworn, Genson said, pointing out that the committee’s rules required signed and sworn statements. Genson also claimed Cari is a “convicted extortionist.” * 1:58 pm - “This is Alice in Wonderland!” Genson just exclaimed about the trick-box his client is in regarding the use of the federal wiretaps. * 1:54 pm - Genson is now claiming that using information from the wiretaps is “illegal.” • 1:30 pm - Dave Ellis has moved on to the Ali Ata allegations. Mainly they are just eating up time today. At least, so far. Also, they may wrap up the week tomorrow and take the weekend off while they await some documents, etc. * 12:38 pm - 15 minute recess. * 12:32 pm - If you’re having problems with the House’s video/audio feeds, WGN TV has a feed on its page. Click here. Also, the Daily Herald has a story up about something we mentioned earlier below: Blagojevich attorney trying to get taxpayers to foot impeachment defense tab * 12:24 pm - There are a few stories online right now… AP: Blagojevich attorney challenges impeachment panel… SJ-R: Governor’s lawyer sparks fireworks at hearing… CBS2: Gov’s Attorney Comes Out Swinging At Impeachment - Ed Genson Complains Blagojevich Cannot Get A Fair Hearing… USA Today: Republicans want more seats on Blagojevich impeachment committee… • 12:03 pm - I’m hearing the committee is expected to wrap things up much quicker than some had thought. One reason is there is no expectation that Fitz will cooperate. A story in the SJ-R today quoted someone predicting a late January finish. Not so, I’m told. Also, I am updating from my iPhone so please forgive typos and abbreviations. Thanks. • 11;44 am - Genson also claimed that introducing the fed complaint was illegal. But the code he cited dealt with courts only so that was dismissed as well. Earlier, Genson asked for the state to pay his defense costs. Denied, told to take his request to the attorney general. • 11:42 am - Genson said he wants subpoena powers and more time to prepare. Both denied. Currie: this is not a court. • 11:38 am - Genson wants members recused, including Reps Black, Traccy and Black, based on their previous positions on this case. They made comments which showed they can’t be fair. Currie: Committee is not in a position to expel members. * The House impeachment committee meets today at 11 o’clock. Watch or listen to it live by clicking here. Please help those who can’t watch by live-blogging the events in comments. I’ll be at the hearing as well, so I may or may not be able to post much. Do not use this post to comment on other items, please. Stick to the hearing, and only the hearing. Thanks.
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- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 10:49 am:
Rich,
shhhhhhhhh;the stream is live already but don’t let the word out that; from some of the background noise I am hearing there may be an open mike there somewhere.
- downstate reader - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 10:52 am:
So Rich when do you think the Governor will appear at the hearing if ever?
Has the US Attorney derailed the process?
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 10:58 am:
The sound has been working pretty good; even before the sound-check
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:11 am:
Rules: 24 hour notice, MAYBE if you can…
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:12 am:
Has genson made it down? This should be interesting.
- Carbon Deforestation - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:14 am:
Looks like he is sitting there. Someone is reading the rules, perhaps David Ellis. He has a smooth and silky voice.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:14 am:
Am I correct in that he said that SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM were to be issued at the discretion of the Chair?
- Lefty - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:14 am:
Genson is at the table with two others. He pronounced his name with a hard “g”.
- wndycty - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:16 am:
For Chicago area folks its like on CLTV.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:17 am:
Let the Speaker determine whether a subpoena can be issued? That’s seems unusual; especially when he’s not on the committee.
- wndycty - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:18 am:
What was I thinking using the phrase “like on CLTV.”? My apologies. . .LOL
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:20 am:
Uneven number of members and republican’s don’t have subpoena power. Trouble a brewing?
113 members voted for this, let the Republicans have their fun and then rubber stamp the impeachment…
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:22 am:
We got it, GOP. You wanted equal membership and subpoena power.
Do you all have to comment? Let’s roll.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:23 am:
Currie referenced a prohibiuted list of witnesses offerred by the U.S. Attorney. Does one presently exist or are they simply anticipating one?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:24 am:
Genson doesn’t like the rules. Black has the floor.
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:25 am:
I told you Genson would try to intimidate Currie early. Pretty good smackdown, and then a good transition to the comic relief, Rep. Black.
- wndycty - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:25 am:
Its funny, both parties want to impeach Rod, yet they want to argue about how they are going to do it.
- Joshua - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:28 am:
This seems to me to be a pretty reasonable argument about both parties having a right of subpoena. I can certainly see why the Dems would want to impose limitations, but that could be a hard rule to defend.
- i am watching it - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:29 am:
If Genson thought that he could come down and make this Committee look like a fool: he was mistaken!
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:31 am:
Everyone has to have their say for the public ear, and to protect their turf, yada yada yada . . . Illinois gives itself yet another reason for being a national joke. Thanks boys and girls.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:32 am:
Just vote yes or no and spare us the commentary!
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:37 am:
Is Ellis going to go through all 80 pages?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:38 am:
Genson wants committee members to recuse themselves due to their comments. He just singled out Black, Franks, . Good luck with that Ed.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:39 am:
Tracy, too.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:39 am:
Currie: forget it.
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:39 am:
I hope Mr. G is reminded consistently that the committee is not deciding on legal matters or procedures, or that responses to him are short and do not enable his continual input.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:40 am:
Now he wants a continuance!
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:41 am:
He’s trying to pull an RKelly!
- Commonsense in Illinois - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:42 am:
Well, it looks like Barbara can say the “magic” word to Mr. Genson much more artfully than the Governor…
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:42 am:
Currie is holding her own with Gensen. He’s not brought out any theatrics - yet.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:42 am:
Currie: Nope
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:43 am:
Gensen clearly thinks he is in court. Could somebody please give him a dope slap?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:43 am:
Now he is reading code about the wiretap.
- Stinky - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:43 am:
Why don’t they have a witness list? And shouldn’t they by law have a list?
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:44 am:
Gensen doesn’t get it. No he doesn’t have any tapes, no one else does either. There’s enough items to discuss and evidence to present without the tapes to send Blago home for good. You’re not doing so good thus far Eddie.
- BandCamp - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:44 am:
No dice Gensen. I think the phrase, “we are not a court and this is not a criminal trial” is going to be repeated and repeated until Gensen falls asleep hearing that tonight.
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:44 am:
Bill, are you listening to the same thing the rest of us are?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:45 am:
That depends on what you’re listening to.
- Boone Logan Square - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:46 am:
Somewhere up there, David Currie is chuckling at his widow’s polite yet firm rebukes of Gensen.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:47 am:
Since the committee has opted not to post any documents to its page; despite clearly including a link for them, does someone want to posit an opinion as to what aspects; if any, of these records are subject to FOIA.
It’s been a few years since I reviewed this in its entirety; but my quick skim of the FOIA this morning would seem that substantially all of the material produced by; or presented to the committee is subject to FOIA disclosure requirements.
Anybody else have a differing opinion?
- Amy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:48 am:
nice of Ellis to remind committee members to do their homework and read the entire complaint from front to back.
he’s a pro.
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:48 am:
Genson’s playing to two groups:
1. The court of public opinion. My client is getting railroaded, this is unfair, we have no time, etc.
2. Potential future clients. Look at me, I’m a fighter. You can’t buy that kind of advertising.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:48 am:
This is gonna be brutal. Ellis won’t use the “curse words”. He’ll say bleep.
- Boone Logan Square - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:48 am:
David Ellis is reading the criminal complaint, after explaining that he will be using code words for particular names and bleeps for words that we can’t use on this blog.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:52 am:
BS. House Bill 1824 bore fleeting resemblance to House Bill
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:56 am:
This begs the question of subpoena’s issued to IFA or any individuals associated with it, as well as executing a search warrant of the IFA to protect and secure records pertaining to the Tribune deal.
- Speaking at Will - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:57 am:
I think it just sank in to me how ridiculous this all is. My god, what has this state become? I should have taken the day off and had a kegger at my house in conjunction with the impeachment hearings.
“It’s a politcal bleeping operation up there.”
“Fire those Bleepers”
Jeepers, creepers, wher’d ya get those bleepers!
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:57 am:
Fire those Bleepers!
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:58 am:
Couldn’t they have just introduced the criminal complaint document? Do they have to read from it? I presume if you’re on the committee, you’ve read it.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 11:59 am:
Who is the Ex Dir of IFA again?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:01 pm:
Is this where Patti chimes in?
- Mo - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:01 pm:
I thought Ellis said, quote: I not going to read this, quote, I am going to only review highlights ,closed quote
Geez everybody has read the document.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:03 pm:
LOL
- Bill Baar - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:03 pm:
They’re really saying “bleepers”?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:04 pm:
Has anybody left yet?
- Say WHAT? - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:05 pm:
Harris was really a lap dog!
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:06 pm:
Bill-Ali Atta was previously at the IFA, but Filan was obviously plugged into that post in the interest of greasing the skids for the Wrigley Field deal.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:09 pm:
LOL, just like there was no control over the Health Facilities Planing Board or TRS after the members were appointed.
- Joe in the Know - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:09 pm:
The feed I am watching, (CBS 2 Chicago), just panned the crowd. I am shocked that the room is so empty. I thought this would be the biggest show in town.
- BandCamp - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:11 pm:
made it through an entire section w/o Gensen input. Can we go 2-0?
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:13 pm:
Eddie Gensen is good, I liked that he tried to get Franks thrown off or recused!!! However, he needs to put away the court rules of procedure, and read the MJM rules of Springpatch!! 12 BEATS 9 EVERY TIME!!!!!!!! I would love to know who he would bring down as a witness?? Wyma???
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:15 pm:
The room is empty for a reason. Go stand in the back of the room and eventually they will call you up there just to ask you what you know!!!
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:16 pm:
Ellis is good and smart. But, Rob Uhe would have presented this like butter! Uhe would have brought back memories of Watergate!!
- BandCamp - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:17 pm:
remind me why they are reading this into the record?
- Ramsin - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:19 pm:
BandCamp: Clearly to “bore us out”.
- Ghost - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:21 pm:
the server is busy! they need to up the bandwith
- Toni H. - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:21 pm:
Hey Genson: when it comes to telling Currie what to do —– good luck wit dat!!! She will clean your plow ’cause she can.
- Amy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:22 pm:
look at all those plastic bottles of water. people, please think of the landfill, especially now that recycling is cost prohibitive. don’t you have a thermal mug from one of your golf outings?
- just ducky - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:24 pm:
can’t get audio or video to load, and CBS2 website is junk heap. everyone’s going to miss all of the fun.
- BandCamp - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:25 pm:
hatin on Obama. My fav part of the tapes.
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:25 pm:
The ilga feed quit working for me, so I switched over to wbbm tv’s feed. Better video.
- Been There - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:27 pm:
If Genson gets even one of his requests granted, most of us should hire him to represent us when we are testifing at committee. At least if we are testifing as an opponent. But my guess is the result will be the same:
We’ve heard enough. Anymore questions? Are we ready to take the roll?
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:27 pm:
Interesting ledes on those stories. They should say “Governor’s attorney unclear on process, thinks house hearing is a courtroom. At one point called Rep. Currie, “Your Honor.”"
- OneMan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:28 pm:
You can get a video stream from the Trib site…
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:28 pm:
I can put up with the trib stuff and the senate seat stuff but calling Barack a bleeper bleeper is definite grounds for impeachment and conviction in the Senate.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:31 pm:
Can’t you just see Warren Buffet and Bill Gates popping $15 million for Rod’s 501c4? I bet they had their checkbooks out.
- BandCamp - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:33 pm:
SO the Senate seat decision was never going to based on what was “good for the people of Illinois.”
Bleep him.
- Phil Collins - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:33 pm:
The state government shouldn’t consider giving money to the Tribune, for the Cubs. I know many people who don’t care about sports. Their tax money shouldn’t be given to any sports teams. All governments should ban any spending, for sports teams.
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:35 pm:
The Trib video is working great.
- ChiCountryGuy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:40 pm:
Anyone else catch the open microphone conversation that occured right after they announced their 15min break?
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:42 pm:
shhhhh; don’t spill the beans.
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:43 pm:
Gensen will prove that it was not Rod on the tapes!!! He will say that the voice on the tapes was none other than ELVIS HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:47 pm:
Rich, those first headlines you cited were exactly what Genson wanted. Good for business.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:53 pm:
I would hardly call them “fireworks”. Genson starting mouthing off and Currie shut him up.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:53 pm:
FYI Rich the ILGA committee site has their document link semi-populated now:
http://www.ilga.gov/house/committees/reports.asp?CommitteeID=758&GA=95
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:53 pm:
Would someone, other than Bill, please give me an earthly reason why Gensen wants the State to pay his defense fees, other than Blago’s broke?
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:54 pm:
I say semi- because in their ongoing efforts for transparency; none of the links to the documents or exhibits actually work.
- Ryan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:56 pm:
Bill, the same Currie who has been a meek lapdog for Madigan for 15 Years?
Jack Franks is the most respected member of the House. The only one to buck his own party and call for Blago to resign in 2006, unlike Currie.
Franks for Governor in 2010.
- kisssilent - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 12:57 pm:
Does anyone have a Committee seating chart?
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:00 pm:
Because the executive branch’s lawyer is the AG! And the Governor has the right to ask that a special counsel be appointed absent the AG using a state paid staffer to represent him. Mr. Genson will not get his usual hourly wage, he will be paid a state approved rate for outside counsel.
- Help - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:01 pm:
Anyone having trouble getting either feed to work?
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:01 pm:
Help - go to WGNTV.com
- kisssilent - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
Exhibits 1-5 and Committee Rules are now posted http://ilga.gov/house/committees/reports.asp?CommitteeID=758&GA=95
- Help - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
Thank you LE
- Say WHAT? - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
Why was I hearing music? It sounded like a wedding reception in the room next door (with very thin walls).
- Belle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:04 pm:
Wanna bet? Check this out. Apologies to those who have seen it. http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6559104
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:06 pm:
On the WGN feed, you can see the copy of the document Ellis is looking at. The whole thing appears to be highlighted. Doesn’t he understand the point of highlighting?
- JonShibleyFan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:11 pm:
CBS feed caught someone laughing when Ellis read the point abour Blagojevich repairing his image for a possible 2016 Presidential run.
Certainly worth laughing at.
- Levois - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:11 pm:
I think I heard laughter at the mention of 2016.
- puzzler - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:13 pm:
Who will be providing the committee with legal/constitutional advice? I realize probably 3/4 of them have law degrees, but I hope there’s a constitutional law expert in the wings. What legal standing does Genson have at these hearings?
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:16 pm:
Puzzler:
I thought the Speaker’s original comments included that Appelate Judge Alan Grieman (MR. HAMOS)would be serving as the legal advisor to the Committee.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:16 pm:
Both Ds and Rs have legal counsel. Genson’s only standing is whatever the committee decides it to be.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:18 pm:
Rule 5 not only subjects the Republicans to denial of their subpoena requests at the discretion of the Committee Chair or the Speaker, but it leaves the Governor and his counsel’s request for subpoena recipients as well:
http://www.ilga.gov/house/committees/Documents/Committee%20Rules%20of%20the%20Special%20Investigative%20Committee%20of%20the%2095th%20General%20Assembly.pdf
Is there are due process or equal protection here? Consitutional rights would seem to trump administrative rules.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:19 pm:
Fireworks? What fireworks? Seems to me this hearing would only be of interest to people who just got back from a two week vacation on Mars and missed Fitz’s press conference.
- Gabriel - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:20 pm:
==Would someone, other than Bill, please give me an earthly reason why Gensen wants the State to pay his defense fees, other than Blago’s broke?==
Genson’s broke?
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:21 pm:
Contributor 1?
This seems appropriate at this time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka3PjPW3gk8
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:23 pm:
Like all the Republicans who hated Clinton were expelled from his impeachment proceedings.
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:26 pm:
How does genson get to speak without recognition from the chair??
- Ryan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:28 pm:
This has to be a Bi-Partisan effort, or Genson will make Mincemeat out of the House Panel.
Genson is right when he says there is a conflict of interest with many members due to past rhetoric, and the fact that there is much fear in Springfield about Blago singing to the Feds.
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:28 pm:
NOW he’s going to summarize something rather than just read it? (I understand Gensen’s confusion.)
- ILPundit - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:31 pm:
I’m beginning to think Genson needs to hire a lobbyist…
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:31 pm:
===Is there are due process or equal protection here? Consitutional rights would seem to trump administrative rules.===
Since this is not a court proceeding the rules rule!
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:37 pm:
Currie should tell Gensen: “A lack of preparation on your part is not a crisis on our part.”
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:38 pm:
Pot is correct. Please, people, pay attention. We’ve made that point a hunnert times already
- Rob_N - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:39 pm:
Stinky writes:
“Why don’t they have a witness list? And shouldn’t they by law have a list?”
I’m not sure if that was a Genson question or your own question Stinky. By law the committee can do whatever the heck it wants. HR1650 gave them the power to subpoena but didn’t say they had to.
This is not a criminal or civil court proceeding (that sounds familiar). It is purely a legislative committee hearing to determine whether there is cause to impeach the governor (ie, whether or not he is still fit to govern the state).
wordslinger asks:
“Couldn’t they have just introduced the criminal complaint document? Do they have to read from it? I presume if you’re on the committee, you’ve read it.”
They could have simply had the criminal complaint as presented to the public by the US Attorney entered into the record with a motion… or some other procedure, but I get the impression they want the effect of actually reading the entire bleep’in thing.
–
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:40 pm:
Pot, which part of the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution limits the rights of equal protection of the laws to only those situations when involved in a court proceeding?
- JonShibleyFan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:41 pm:
Does anyone else watching CBS’ feed have only loud static right now?
- Joe in the Know - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:42 pm:
CBS feed must be down.
- ivoted4judy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:45 pm:
People this is not a trial! All that needs to be presented are items that showed the Governor violated his oath of office. It makes no difference if Rod actually followed thru with what is on the tapes. Just the fact that Rod conspired with Harris and others to use his office for his personal benefit. He did not have to actually follow thru just attempting to abuse his power as Governor is enough for the House to vote to impeach. The Senate will then listen to the “evidence” that is presented in the Senate trial, and then the Senators will decide if the allegations reached the required burden of removing the Gov from office.
- anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:46 pm:
OMG this is painfully boring!
- lavendarnlace - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:50 pm:
omg is correct…………………Genson is setting this up to make Blago rich, rich, rich. Lawsuit City.
- OneMan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:50 pm:
Oh snap…
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:53 pm:
Not so boring now!
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:53 pm:
Lang 1, Gensen 0
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:56 pm:
According to the 4th Amendment to the constitution, “…no Warrents shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation…” point to Rep. Gordon. If Gensen wants to rule on probable cause, he should become a judge.
- Commonsense in Illinois - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:56 pm:
The Illinois Supreme Court has rejected Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan’s attempt to have Gov. Rod Blagojevich declared unfit to hold office, court officials said.
The high court issued the order without comment.
From the Chicago Tribune.
- Pete - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:56 pm:
WGN is much better than the house feed BTW.
- Say WHAT? - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:56 pm:
Gensen cannot get the message that this is NOT a courtroom. WHAT HAPPENED TO MY FEED????
- Say WHAT? - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:58 pm:
Pete, Thank you. WGN is much better.
- Concerned Observer - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:58 pm:
I’m sorry to butt in…I cannot listen. What did Lang say to earn his point?
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 1:58 pm:
The 6th Amendment (which outlines the rights of the accused) begins: “In all criminal prosecutions…”
- From the Sidelines - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:01 pm:
Blago Sphere, Section 1 of the 14th Amendment reads…
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The General Assembly isn’t attempting to deprive Blago of his life or liberty, and I’m sorry, but the governorship isn’t property. Thus “due process” is not of issue here.
As to equal protection the lawmakers are treating Blago like any other citizen who was elected to the governor’s office twice but turned out to be a crooked dork. That’s equal protection.
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:01 pm:
Genson is good. He is laying grounds. He won’t convince anybody on the panel of anything but that is not really what he is trying to do.
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:04 pm:
Gensen is old and forgetful. He just admitted it.
- This Guy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:04 pm:
“…that is not really what he is trying to do.”
Then what is he trying to do, exactly?
- Bill - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:05 pm:
Don’t buy it. Genson remembers every nickel he ever made.
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:06 pm:
CO, Lang was making a point about obtaining a wire tap, on what grounds would approval be given? Lang suggested probable cause as the reason and Gensen agreed. So any further argument Gensen made about the wire taps were moot. Lang made his point that there was probable cause or approval would not have been given for such.
- This Guy - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:07 pm:
If Gensen bills by the hour, then the longer he talks, the more he makes.
Good for him, but I hope his retainer was paid in cash.
- Mo - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:07 pm:
Anyone else unable to see the vidior on WGN?
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:08 pm:
Oh Bill, I am buying it. If this is the best Blago can afford, he’s in big trouble. I don’t hold Gensen in the high regard that some do.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:10 pm:
Pot, the 6th amendment pertains to criminal prosecutions; which I think we both agree, this is not.
My question is; where in the 14th amendment does it limit the application of the right of equal protection to those situations inside; or outside of criminal prosecutions.
I don’t see where the 6th amendment limitations over-ride the rights granted under the 14th outside of a criminal prosecution.
Is there case law that supports the 6th amendments over-ride of the rights granted under the 14th amendment?
- Who Else Goes Down - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:10 pm:
Can’t see the video. But I don’t like the way Blago’s atty is manipulating the meaning of probable cause. Good for Gordon and Lang for reminding him of definitions. Too bad he didn’t seem to hear them.
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:11 pm:
This impeachment proceeding, as it is being conducted, will not help wrest the Governor from his elected office, especially if the basis is the arrest affadavit. Just my current prediction. What will it do? Paralyze the legitimate process of governing the state for at least two years. And THAT ought to be the impeachable cause for removing him from office. Let’s see.
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:11 pm:
Genson is arguing based on court rules for criminal proceedings, which have little or nothing to do with the real world. People make decisions based on hearsay every day. Statements not made under oath are accepted as evidence by people making important decisions. Perjurors and serial liars are listened to and their statements are weighed based on inherent credibility, corroboration, etc. Without court rules requiring otherwise (and there are none applicable), he has to explain why hearsay, unsworn statements, etc. cannot be received as evidence, and he isn’t even trying.
BTW, outside of the criminal context, “due process” means notice and a right to be heard. Telling G Rod he can show up and giving him the opportunity to explain his side of the matter is all the due process he is entitled to.
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:13 pm:
I like that both the Speaker and the Minority Leader are attending.
- OneMan - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:15 pm:
Oh boy tomorrow will get to JCAR… Looking forward to Gensen dealing with that and the audit stuff.
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:16 pm:
Blago Sphere: From the Sidelines answered your question perfectly. The 14th Amendment does not apply in this case because Rod Blagojevich does not have a Constitutional right to be Governor. He doesn’t even have a right to a job.
- How Ironic - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:16 pm:
Adjourned until 10:00 am 12-18-08.
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:17 pm:
3 attorneys at the table for Blago plus is the court reporter one Gensen brought or is she taking minutes for the entire proceeding?
- Anon - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:20 pm:
Also, as far as equal protection is concerned, he only needs to be treated the same as anyone else the GA would impeach. The 14th Amendment guarantees the equal protection of the laws.
- Concerned Observer - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:22 pm:
Thanks, Little E. And Go Dawgs tonight.
I think Bill’s right in that Genson’s entire reason for attending is to try and turn public sentiment a bit against the legislature. But we shall see.
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:26 pm:
The point is that the 14th amendment equal protect refers to life, liberty, and property and applies the constitutional protections to the states. The constitutional protections of the 6th amendment are for criminal proceeding, which this is not. There simply is no Constitutional guarantee of due process in this situation.
- Captain Flume - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:28 pm:
Seems like the committee agenda is moving from the alleged to the documented, from sensational to demonstrable events and actions (or inactions).
- Little Egypt - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:28 pm:
Gensen might have been able to run a little with the dogs today (don’t mean that as an insult to “THE DAWGS”) but I think he will find this a whole lot different tomorrow when they talk about JCAR and bring in the Auditor General. I just think Gensen is so out of his league, perhaps for at least the sixth time in his legal career (counting Conrad Black, Fawell, Bauer, Warner and Mel Reynolds). Not a great track record for an attorney who has been hired to represent the person holding the highest office in Illinois. But isn’t this typical Blago?
- Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:35 pm:
Gensen was too busy being a courtroom-based, criminal defense attorney. He is saying that the judges who authorized the wire taps and arrest warrant did not have probable cause and that those warrants are invalid and thus their fruits are invalid. In court, he would get a hearing on those points. In this committee hearing, they are moot. Even if a judge had ruled that the wiretaps were invalid, the committee could still use them!
- Capitol View - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:42 pm:
Little Egypt - the transcriber was there yesterday as well. ( I almost called her a court reporter, but this hearing is not a court of law!)
- Black Robe - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 2:58 pm:
As per due process discussion. “An elected official has a property right in his office which cannot be taken away except by due process of law, but an official takes his office subject to the conditions imposed by the terms and nature of the political system in which he operates.” See 450 F.2d 562 and 595 F.2d 985. That is probably the best short statement of the law today on the applicability of the due process clause of the 14th Amendment to these proceedings. He is entitled to due process, but the due process clause does not, in these circumstances, require the respondent be afforded all rights and procedural protections afforded one accused of a felony.
- He Makes Ryan Look Like a Saint - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 3:46 pm:
I think they need to speed up the proceedings take it to the floor and get their vote in. If the Gov testifies before the committee, (which he won’t due to the Feds trial) then set the drop dead date and get him in there. Working 2-3 hours a day on this will take forever.
- thurber - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 4:52 pm:
I wish there was an organized protest at the Capital calling for justice for Rod on the weekend so 9 to 5′ers could attend…I would drive a couple hours to attend, I am sick of the corruption and the arrogance….Since Rod is dying to address the people of Illinois maybe he would show up to address the crowd.
- train111 - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 5:24 pm:
This may sound pretty crass, but why don’t we just get out the three rings, paint the clown’s faces and cue up the circus music already!! It’s going to be a long next few months.
train111
- steve schnorf - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 6:36 pm:
People shouldn’t just assume that procedural due process is an acceptable proxy for substantive due process. And, Black Robe, very good explanation for all the non-believers out there
- Huh? - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 7:21 pm:
Here is asuggestion to get blago out of office of his own free will. The Fed Tapes have blago complaining about his personal finances, so why not take up a collection and pay him to leave. The ultimate pay to play.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 7:40 pm:
Black Robe-
Thanks for the recitation. I recognize that the due process clause in these circumstances, may not require the respondent be afforded all rights and procedural protections afforded one accused of a felony. I also have to believe however that the respondent does not likely forfeit all due process rights either; despite the ministerial nature of this proceeding.
I think there is plenty for the legislators to find cause for an impeachment trial in the Senate, but I believe they have to be careful about how they go about it. This Rule 5 appears to me to be reckless in that regard and could create grounds for some real problems.
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 7:59 pm:
Anon @ 2:20
{he only needs to be treated the same as anyone else the GA would impeach}
First, the respondent in this case is not being treated the same as Justice Heiple. In some ways he may be treated better; however in others it appears worse.
The Resolution indicates that the Special Investigative Committee is:
“empowered to adopt rules to govern the proceedings before it in order to ensure due process, fundamental fairness, and a
thorough investigation”
I am not sure how it could be determined that the sole power to grant or deny request by the Governor or his counsel to subpoena witnesses or documents rests with someone that is not even a member of the committee itself; but could also not be construed as a dis-interested third party.
- Boomer - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 8:23 pm:
Black Robe, I read but I never post. Just have to say thanks for your comments. I enjoy reading all the regulars here. Some are funny, some are goofy and some are really informative. I find your posts very informative
- Blago Sphere - Wednesday, Dec 17, 08 @ 9:01 pm:
Did the House vote to suspend the rules with regard to the meeting notice posting requirements as applicable to the Special Investigative Committee?
They still do not have a notice posted for the meeting purportedly scheduled for tomorrow. Has that meeting been cancelled; or did someone just fail to post it?