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Dearest Tea Party members…
Friday, Aug 6, 2010 - Posted by Rich Miller * I actually agree with some of what you all are trying to do here. And as a red-blooded, First Amendment-loving American, I love to see citizen engagement and would fight to the death to preserve your right to say whatever you want. But it’s really difficult to take you seriously when you show up to protests, like you did yesterday, carrying signs like this…  The tagline on this sign is “Ignorance isn’t bliss, it’s dangerous.” Yet, “Freedoms,” “Children” and “Losing” are all misspelled. “Loosing” is a common, though grating, misspelling, so I’ll give you that. But “fredoms” and “childen”? Oh, the irony. If a friend had some mustard on his chin, I’m sure you would tell him. So, if a friend brings a ridiculously misspelled sign to a protest, you should probably help her out. …Adding… Some of you more strident types are missing the humor in this post. If the sign didn’t include the tagline “Ignorance isn’t bliss, it’s dangerous,” I never would’ve used this pic. It’s irony, people. …Adding More… The sign in that John V. Moore photo above wasn’t a quick, hurry-up-we’re-late-finish-the-thing one-off. It’s been around since at least early July. And, yet, the owner didn’t notice the irony. * And way to scare the heck outta people with this t-shirt…  “Babies - Guns - Jesus”? I wonder how Senate Republican Leader Christine Radogno and House Republican Leader Tom Cross feel about this sentiment, since they’re both co-hosting the big national tea party rally next month. * News roundup from yesterday’s presidential visit…
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- Joe from Joliet - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:02 pm:
Those danged tea partiers with their corporate-produced, pre-made, coordinated-by-a-central-authority, astroturfian materials.
- Windy City Mama - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:03 pm:
The sign worked. It got your attention.
- Carl Nyberg - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:03 pm:
What Constitutional rights is the Tea Party movement concerned about?
Our rights to build religious institutions where we choose?
Our 14th Amendment rights?
The right to directly elect U.S. Senators?
The Tea Party movement uses the language of fighting against government infringing on rights in general terms.
But when it comes to specific policies, the Tea Party mostly aligns with people who want to use government to reduce the rights of individuals.
- A.B. - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:04 pm:
LMAO! I am sure that is not the first person to screw up a protest sign, but I really hope someone points that out to them….very sad.
In regards to the Palin shirt….even this Republican is glad the woman wearing that shirt is not my neighbor. (I would still take her over Michael Moore and his worshipers)
That being said, if the party is going to have a big tent mentality, then all types and perspectives need to have a voice.
- Moving to Oklahoma - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:05 pm:
Some people cant spell. big deal.
- Old Democrat - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:05 pm:
I think the democrats need to go down in mass this year so that the party can be reborn with new leaders. I’m ashamed to say it but my side has failed and needs a house cleaning.
- David Ormsby - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:10 pm:
Why edit the tea party’s ignorance? It’s revealing.
While they learn to spell, everyone else learns all they need to know about these folks.
And it ain’t much.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:11 pm:
Some of you are completely missing the point of the irony in that sign.
“Ignorance isn’t bliss, it’s dangerous.”
Think about it.
If that tagline wasn’t on the sign, I never would’ve used that pic.
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:16 pm:
===Some people cant spell. big deal.===
It seems endemic to the Baggers.
As the Baggers become more and more toxic, it would seem that “real” Republicans wouldn’t want to have anythingn to do with them. That doesn’t seem to be the case in Illinois. Can’t to see what pictures come out of the Beck trip to Illinois. A lack of “arm-in-arm” pics will be quite telling.
- Team America - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:22 pm:
Is anyone else skeptical that the Obama-Giannoulias event actually raised $1 million, as now widely reported? Yes, it was a nice haul for Giannoulias yesterday, and a PR coup to show that Obama really is backing him, after all. But, for starters, I exchanged e-mails with Rick Pearson at the Trib who responded that the $1 mil was a gross, not a net figure, since they have to split expenses with the DNC for the trip. Given the reported attendance, and the ticket prices, and after you back out all the usual comps and freebees, I just don’t see how you get that close to a mil.
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:24 pm:
Yes, we see why the SEIU signs are all pre-made, no? Yes, these are the unwashed white, rural rubes who have no shot at socio-economic mobility. I feel great empathy for them. I see these kinds of folks here in SO-IL or in rural MO or KY, where we’ve been of late. It’s tragic. These folks are scorned by their betters in the ruling class, while if they were of different cultures they’d be given a chance to succeed among the privileged. They write, however incorrectly, from their gut sense of right and wrong.
While the Palin shirt might seem crude to combine such ideas (and I would not wear it), you perhaps don’t understand that the shirt points out that Palin purportedly stands for the rights of people of faith, right to life for unborn babies, and 2nd amendment rights.
I don’t think the MSM is quite grasping the depth and seriousness of the sentiments against the arrogant “ruling class” of either party, from the federal or state govts, from the courts, etc. The people were told that we were a self-governing nation. They amazingly believe that stuff about liberty. And are getting angry that such rights are not being respected at all levels of govt.
Continue to mock if you must as Michelle Antoinette and King Barry-Louis carry on. [With apologies to the Martyr Queen Marie Antoinette.]
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:24 pm:
I get the irony…
But when you lefties have to stop paying people to go to your protests, you can criticize.
Deep South-
You know what seems endemic to liberals? Sexual innuendo. In fact, deeply perverse sexual innuendo. Normal people don’t have sex that way. Seek help.
Carl-
If you want a list of policies the Tea Party supports or is against, feel free to contact me. I’d be happy to show you plenty of resources.
- Montrose - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:24 pm:
I say, keep it up. Keep defending the Constitution while pushing for the repeal of pieces of it. Keep using sad, ironic signs. Keep putting folks like Rand Paul and Angel out front.
Most importantly, keep having Brady and Kirk and other Republicans that have a chance at actually winning attach themselves to them. Go for it. Keep believing that is a strategy that will win you a general election. I truly welcome it.
In that same vein, Gutierrez penned a great piece on why he welcomes Senate hearings on the repeal of the 14th amendment:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-luis-gutierrez/mcconnell-is-right-to-dem_b_670899.html
- Davey Boy Smithe - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:26 pm:
Why can’t people spell the word “losing” correctly? I feel like I see it spelled incorrectly 95% of the time when I’m reading in Comments section. It really grinds my gears.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:27 pm:
DBS, we almost eliminated that misspelling here after much hectoring from myself and others, but some newbies are doing it now. I agree, it makes me wince.
- Dyed in the wool Conservative - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:28 pm:
I agree with Rich, it is funny noting the tag line. So the person with the sign should be arrested - they are dangerous, lol.
- Team America - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:29 pm:
Confusing “its” and “it’s” is even worse, and I see that on professionally printed materials and signs all the time. Grrr….
- "Clerks" fan - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:30 pm:
Stupid is as stupid does!
- UISer - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:31 pm:
Peggy SO-IL,
lol
- Cincinnatus - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:35 pm:
Perhaps the TeaPartiers could hire some SEIU thugs to create their signs and pay them to march at their protests. Oh, wait, the SEIU is tied up already spending their members fees on political protesting…
- Montrose - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:39 pm:
John B.-
*But when you lefties have to stop paying people to go to your protests, you can criticize.*
Huh?
Peggy-
You realize you sound Marx-esque, right?
- A-Rog - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:41 pm:
===Continue to mock if you must as Michelle Antoinette and King Barry-Louis carry on.===
Originality violation?
- Anonymous - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:42 pm:
Question of the day, which grates on Rich’s nerves more, mispelling Losing, or Ad
you must appreciate the irony of a post on spelling coming from me
- Eternal optimist - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:46 pm:
It’s easy to misspell lose/losing because it is one of those words that is inconsisent with normal spelling/pronunciation rules. Normally a word that ends with the pattern of vowel, consonant, and “e” would be pronounced with a long vowel. So “lose” should rhyme with “hose”, but it doesn’t. But it does rhyme with “choose”, which follows the normal rules for pronunciation with a double vowel.
Still, it’s a pretty common word that most adults should be able to spell, especially considering how big a part sports plays in our culture. This person is obviously not from the Chicago area where she would be frequently reminded of the correct spelling by headlines like “Cubs lose again.”
- Bakersfield - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:49 pm:
I’m familiar with the Palin shirt and the woman wearing it and it is very tongue-in-cheek as most of the cafepress gear is.
- someone else - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:49 pm:
they are absolutely crazy. They don’t know anything about the constitution except the 2nd Amendment and their right to say, unfortunately, whatever the heck the darn well please given some of the signs I have seen which say, “next time we’re bringing our guns” etc. (there used to be laws against that–akin to shouting fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire–and generally act like bullies, in my experience, who feel free to accuse you of anything, yet when you challenge them they say you are socialist, or blame the “liberal media” or claim to know what the founding fathers intended.
I think they are very dangerous people.
- Zora - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:49 pm:
Peggy SO-IL, the words misspelled on that sign are on any third or fourth grade spelling list, and we do have public education for all in this great nation, so crying “elitism” is plain silly.
The sign writer betrayed his / her ignorance while deploring ignorance. That’s the point. One that is missed only if you are determined to see class issues everywhere.
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:49 pm:
Anonymous - @ 12:42 pm is I
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:50 pm:
Mr. Bembenek:
What in the wide world of sport are you talking about? Sexual innuendo? Good gawd!
- IrishPirate - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:51 pm:
I think some of you are “loosing” your minds.
Remember, as Sarah Palin should have said a mind is a terrible thing to put to use.
- Small Town Liberal - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:53 pm:
- But when you lefties have to stop paying people to go to your protests, you can criticize. -
Hah, maybe when Fox news doesn’t inflate tea party rally numbers by astronomical amounts, you can criticize.
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:54 pm:
Montrose,
And, yet, I defended a martyred queen of a ruling class who allegedly spent wildly with disregard for the poor. Her reputation deserves rehabilitation. I don’t know that I’d mind a monarchy that is just and moral.
The discussion of the “ruling class” is from a recent Am Spectator article about the ruling elites vs the general public “country party,” as he called them. We do have socio-economic classes into which only certain folks are invited by govt programs. Make them fair or not have them at all.
Rich is making fun of (presumably) uneducated lower-income whites here as did much of the media during the ‘08 election. Hence, the raising of issues of “class”.
- Small Town Liberal - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:55 pm:
- Sexual innuendo? -
I think JB is whining about being called a tea bagger.
- Louis G. Atsaves - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:55 pm:
I know the Democrats are on a public relations campaign to make fun of the Tea Partiers and call them all names or Republicans, even though many of them are from fringe political views, or didn’t have much in the way of political views until recently. Add the words “racist,” “stupid,” etc. to the “debate” and you have a perfect explosive mix.
Reminds me of an old saying which I’ll paraphrase because I don’t quite remember the exact quote: “Never use a stick to poke an angry dog.”
All I can say to that “strategy” is keep on making fun of them! It just makes them angrier and more determined.
They have a strong “throw the bums out” mentality. Those controlling government in Washington, Springfield and locally should be very nervous about them.
Not all those home made signs at those events make sense, but someone took the special time to make them up, some not using any spellcheckers. And they are taking up special time to do what they haven’t done in the past, pay attention to what their governments are doing to them and getting all angry and fired up about it.
- Cincinnatus - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 12:56 pm:
For all you TeaParty detractors, liberal elitists, people who cannot help themselves from using sexual innuendo, I offer up a story written by JournoLister, David Weigel, published in the liberal Washington Post, and originally written for the liberal magazine, Slate:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/05/AR2010080506105.html?nav=hcmoduletmv
Maybe you will have an appreciation of what TeaParties are all about. Weigel is spot on.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:00 pm:
I wasn’t whining about being called a tea bagger… I was merely pointing out that anyone who uses that term demonstrates that they’re about as mature as a 7th grader. What’s next? Dick jokes?
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:01 pm:
What’s with all the sexual innuendo talk? Maybe someone over in Nutjobistan can explain this to the rest of us.
Are they referring to this lady?
http://teabaggingforjesus.com/
- Tony Sesko - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:02 pm:
NEW YORK - Tea party supporters are wealthier and more well-educated than the general public, tend to be Republican, white, male, and married, and their strong opposition to the Obama administration is more rooted in political ideology than anxiety about their personal economic situation, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:08 pm:
Mr. Bambenek:
I guess not everyone’s mind is in your gutter. While you may be an expert is sexual perversion, not all of us are. If you have a problem with the term “bagger” you’ve got some pretty thin skin. I still don’t know why you assume I’m using sexual innuendo. BTW, this is becoming quite amusing. Thanks for making my afternoon a bit lighter.
- Carl Nyberg - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:10 pm:
John Bambenek, why the need for an offline discussion?
What Constitutional rights are you concerned about losing? What rights concern the Tea Party movement?
I can list a whole bunch of rights the Tea Party movement wants to take away from people.
1. Birthright citizenship
2. The right to be served at restaurants
3. The right to belong to a union
4. The rights of Muslims
5. The civil rights of Latinos
The list of rights the Tea Party movement would curtail or contract is much longer than the list of rights the movement supports.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:12 pm:
OK, enough. Move along.
- Carl Nyberg - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:15 pm:
The Tea Party movement reacts to poor economic conditions, not by lifting anyone up, but by using the power of government to keep down Black, Latinos, immigrants and members of unions.
If you think the solution to economic problems in Illinois and the United States is to make things harder for people of color and workers who want to belong to unions, then you should support the Tea Party movement/GOP.
If you think that’s the wrong direction, you should support some other political party.
- Downstater - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:18 pm:
Having helped promote two different Tea Party events, I can tell you that I get frustrated when the group moves away from the fiscal issues and starts moving into the social issue.
Rick Santelli (who is credited with starting the Tea Party movement) spoke about the frustrations of tax payers to government bloat. That’s the message that resonates with a LARGE majority of the populace.
We don’t need to walk into the tall weeds of all social issues. It only divides us and diminshes our efforts.
The Tea Party will be a BIG TENT movement if they don’t take the bait to try to bring social issues into the debate.
- Cincinnatus - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:25 pm:
Downstater,
Amen, brother.
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:26 pm:
Peggy,
Are you REALLY using this example: “Continue to mock if you must as Michelle Antoinette and King Barry-Louis carry on. [With apologies to the Martyr Queen Marie Antoinette.]”
Using the example of two people beheaded in a violent revolution? You are one sick tea partier.
- Carl Nyberg - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:27 pm:
Downstater, what line item in the budget would members of the Tea Party movement like to cut?
Foreign aid? Do Tea Party people want to cut aid to Israel, because that’s where most of that money goes.
Show me the Tea Party event that talked about cutting money to Israel from the stage.
Or is the Tea Party movement too in cahoots with the establishment to allow that discussion?
BTW, why were these Tea Party participants making noise when Bush started the Iraq War? Invaded Afghanistan? Passed the prescription drug benefit for Medicare?
The Tea Party movement gets incensed about federal spending for non-specific stuff when Obama became POTUS, but these people didn’t say boo when Bush was creating all sorts of debt.
What Bush spending item do Tea Party activists want to cut?
- Third Generation Chicago Native - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:28 pm:
As far as Tea party participants go, it is now very common to see misspelled signs.
I agree with Rich, Ignorance isn’t bliss, it’s dangerous.
That’s why I can’t watch Fox news, (Hannity, Beck, O’Reilly) they have people who oppose their right wing view and talk, shout etc over that guest, instead of letting viewers hear the other side of things. If Fox is your only news source, I feel sorry for you. Fox embraces the Tea Party, even getting caught retouching pictures to add people or have pictures of a fall tea party event with green flowering trees.
- Scott Fawell's Cellmate - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:29 pm:
Wow, a relatively mild post about the ironic misspellings of a protest sign sure gets you Tea Baggers fired up.
Please, rant more. Rant louder. Rant more often. Rant more visibly. And make sure you associate yourselves with the Republican Party at every opportunity. Because the “Tea Party” isn’t a registered political organization in the State of Illinois and won’t be on the ballot in November, but the Republican Party is and will be. So, c’mon you mobs of unfocused masses in the “Tea Party” who claim to love America but hate Americans, we want photos of you with Bill Brady and video of you with Mark Kirk !
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:29 pm:
Peggy,
Also, read some history. When you talk in terms of “class”, you are talking in terms of Karl Marx. Nice to see that the tea baggers consider Marx an authority.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:30 pm:
Carl-
You’re right, we don’t need an offline discussion. You’d rather debate characterture then reality. “The right to be served at restaurants”? I don’t even know where that one came from.
- Amalia - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:30 pm:
babies, guns, jesus…..JESUS! nut, totally nuts.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:31 pm:
And teabagging/teabagger has been a deviant sexual term for decades only made more popular with the advent of Halo.
Don’t pretend you didn’t know that. And don’t pretend that the sexual innuendo has nothing to do why it became such a popular derogatory term.
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:32 pm:
John,
It came from Rand Paul, who argues it should be legal to allow business to discrimate on race.
- MikeMacD - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:34 pm:
“characterture”
?
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:35 pm:
John,
Do some reading. Originally, the partiers WANTED to be called baggers. Now they want to be called something different.
Funny you would complain about the name though. Democrats like to refer to their organization as the “Democratic Party”, but right winger call it the “Democrat Party” apparently because there once was a poll showing that Democrat Party polls badly.
When right wingers start calling it The Democratic Party, then I will start caring about what the far right wants to be called.
- Jake from Elwood - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:39 pm:
Some comments are apparently off their meds today?
Besides, isn’t all of this talk about using proper grammar just a “mute point”.
Err, “moot point”
Nevermind.
- 10th Indy - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:39 pm:
The sign got me thinking of another local classic and after a quick trip to the google I found it:
http://friendsofirony.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/129147037644754585.jpg
- Cincinnatus - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:51 pm:
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:32 pm:
“John,
It came from Rand Paul, who argues it should be legal to allow business to discrimate on race.”
Ahem. This statement is often used to mischaracterize Paul’s position.
Paul does not believe there should be any discrimination in the government on the basis of race, creed, color or whatever. Neither should the government favor any one group.
Paul also believes that PRIVATE individuals should not have limits on their ability to associate with whomever they please.
I think a good discussion can be had on the benefits/detriments of government intrusion on private relationships. I’ll give one example where the line of intrusion may be easily understood: Government is perfectly within its limits to prohibit smoking in government buildings and campuses. But why should the imposition be on private restaurants? Workers can choose not to work in them, customers can choose not to eat in them. This example is not meant to litigate the smoking issue, we’ve seen enough of that. The example is only meant to highlight how Paul thinks.
He is not racist, he is strictly libertarian.
- kappakid - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:52 pm:
Morans.
- Wensicia - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:53 pm:
If you look at the percentage of those supporting Sarah Palin for president, you can also be pretty sure that’s about the percentage of ignorant voters in this country. Why the Republicans are so proud to represent this group is also scary.
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:56 pm:
Cincy,
I never called him a racist. I just said he believes that if a business wants to have a whites-only lunch counter, or a hotel wants to rent only to white people, he doesn’t think government should stand in the way.
That is, in fact, his position.
Which is why I don’t care if he personally would be behind the counter of one of those places. Whether or not he is a racist is irrelevant. What is relevant is that his positions would have the impact of bringing back racial segregation.
- Heartless Libertarian - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:56 pm:
It seems to me, the tea party revels in their ignorance. While the similar groups to the left, oh like ACORN, try to cover their ignorance up. While I generally support many philosophies of the tea party, it is extremely difficult to actually support them because of signs they carry, and shirts they wear. If ignorance is bliss, why ain’t they smilin’?
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:58 pm:
And Cincy,
Are you stating that Rand Paul wants to get rid of all workplace safety rules? That he wants to allow companies to do things like use asbsetos and allow workers to work at height without fall protection?
That may be his position, but it sure is considered fringe.
- Small Town Liberal - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 1:59 pm:
- And teabagging/teabagger has been a deviant sexual term for decades only made more popular with the advent of Halo.
Don’t pretend you didn’t know that. And don’t pretend that the sexual innuendo has nothing to do why it became such a popular derogatory term. -
Wow, touchy John? Maybe you guys should have picked a title that didn’t lend itself so well to innuendo.
- Zora - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:04 pm:
Peggy, if you’re basing a claim of class bias just because you read something about it in an article, then you did not read to the end of Rich’s very simple, very sensible guidelines for commentators on this blog.
- Small Town Liberal - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:07 pm:
- Why don’t you pick up a history book every now and then instead of surfing pron on the web. -
Man, I’ll have to remember this is what gets under your skin. Is pron any good, by the way?
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:09 pm:
Skeeter,
Every form of govt has a “ruling class” formally or informally formed. The justness of such class to the rest of society can be examined without advocating a certain economic or political order. The language might be considered revolutionary, rather than Marxist. I do not advocate a different form of government in the US. We do have “classes” in America. I defend M-A who was martyred by the arguably first godless revolutionaries–precursors to Marxists.
I am not the first to compare M-A and Barry to the martyred monarchs of France. Michelle and Barry appear to be really doing what the French monarchs were accused of (Louis was indeed a weak king), and it riles up the populace even more than they already are. Peggy Noonan, who went overboard for O, comments on this anger boiling up and the detachment that the political (ruling) class has from it.
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:12 pm:
All those folks wearing hats with tea bags hanging off the sides. And we’re not supposed to call them baggers? Oh well. I guess the talking points didn’t make it out to everyone.
BTW, I like the DNC strategy of drawing lines in the sand, asking Republicans if they’re baggers or Republicans and making them chose sides. I hope they keep doing that.
- Anonymous - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:18 pm:
^ Another tea bagger misspells a word
- This is a Riot - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:19 pm:
I don’t think I’ve ever LMAO so much as I have on this post today. I’m nearly speechless but I’m enjoying every minute of this!
And MikeMacD @ 1:34 pm, I agree. I’m still trying to figure out the JB @ 1:30 post. Where did that come from? And it’s “than” instead of “then.” Picky, picky, picky….
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:25 pm:
===No idea, you’re the pevert.====
As I said, it seems endemic to the bagger crowd.
- Going nuclear - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:26 pm:
I think there are many of us who sympathize with the tea party’s concern about the growing federal deficit. However, judging by the daily letters in our local newspaper, it seems that many of their members are still bitter about the Civil War, resentful over civil rights, want southern Christian conservatism to be the nation’s dominant culture and are convinced that President Obama is a socialist and that he wants the terrorists to succeed. There doesn’t seem to be much of an attempt at serious policy development, creative problem-solving or political compromise. I think the tea party is doomed to be the hysterical wing of the Republican Party.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:29 pm:
Going nuclear-
I always draw my conclusions about the true nature of a group from the
crank sectionletters to the editor in the local paper.- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:31 pm:
Rich,
Why would you wonder what Tom Cross and Chris Radogno would think of MY tee shirt? Who cares about them. I don’t work for politicans as you do.
As for the comments about lower-income, uneducated, rural tea partiers, yikes!
Rich, this is picture was taken in Chicago. Chicago, Illinois. And if you took the energy to ask me where I lived, you would have learned that I live in Chicago — less than two miles where this picture was taken. I live in River North, near the East Bank Club. You are more than welcome to visit me in my shack. LMAO
And my only other rural residency has been New York City. Trust me, if I could move to rurual America, I would. They have low taxes, nice people, lower crime. Yes, I can see how unappealing that is compared to you fancy pants Chicagoans - homicide capitol of the country. LOL
Uneducated… Huumm…
I’m attended Northwestern Univeristy. You must have attended an Ivy League school, and good for you. Curious. Where did you attend?
And lower-income… LOL, well, do you really find one’s income an appropriate gage for character and judgment? Seriously… Let’s put it this way. I make enough that I don’t and will never have to depend on any government handout. But I do want free markets back. I own my own company and I am being hurt by the present policies.
If the economy continues, I will be forced to work for the government like you do, Rich, and that just isn’t what I aspire to do. Having to ask government officials for money is pathetic. Don’t you agree, Rich? LOL
Meanwhile, I will keep Cross and Radogno in mind when dressing; and in return, I would ask they keep me in mind while in Springfield. If the republican party did their job, I wouldn’t have to tea party.
But a word to the wise, you might want to rethink your means of riddicule. Belittling one’s education, income and place of residence is just plain cheap.
But when you have no ground to stand on, people usually resort to cheap name calling.
If you knew better, you would know the shirt slogan was coined by Rush Limbaugh, another rural, uneducated, low-income conservative. Cross and Radogno should take note, Limbaugh could teach them some real conservative values.
Personally, I don’t care what anyone says about me.
Any publicity is good publicity.
But I just wanted to pop in and let you know how trashy and cheap you sound.
Keep it up — it gives me validity.
Babies, guns & Jesus!
Catherina Wojtowicz,
Chicago Tea Patriots
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:33 pm:
Catherina, I called you none of those things. But with all that education, you might have missed reading comprehension.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:34 pm:
Also, I don’t work for the government. If you understood how to read, perhaps you’d know that. Scroll down.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:35 pm:
===Keep it up — it gives me validity.===
LOL. I will. Thanks much.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:36 pm:
Three for one, Rich?
- MikeMacD - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:38 pm:
“I’m attended Northwestern Univeristy.”
Is that what they teach or is that what was learned?
- just sayin' - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:45 pm:
Few people would come out to see a Radogno or Cross. They have to glom-on where they can.
- Mad Brown - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:48 pm:
Catherina,
Irony. Irony. Nothing here is personal. Wear what you like. You have an opinion as does everyone else on this planet, so be prepared to accept that. It’s one of those RIGHTS in the Constitution you defend.
By the way, did Jesus carry a gun? Just curious.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:51 pm:
John, her comment was so very long that I thought I would divide my response into separate thoughts.
Plus, you’re gonna talk about multiple comments?
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:53 pm:
Those were pretty small thoughts, Rich.
- Concerned viewer - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:55 pm:
Rich, you might want to Google CW before further comment.
Catherina Wojtowicz: Threatens to Shoot Blogger |Sep 20, 2009 … No More Tea for Me, Thank You Over the past week I have been cyber-stalked by Catherina Wojtowicz, leader of the Chicago Tea Party Patriots.
digg.com/…/Catherina_Wojtowicz_Threatens_to_Shoot_Blogger_StreetWise
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 2:59 pm:
Catherina,
Good on you. I accused Rich of making fun of presumably uneducated, low-income rural whites. I may have started the use of such words here, I confess. That is how I interpreted Rich’s meaning of the photos here.
God bless you. Good luck in your business.
- Going nuclear - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:01 pm:
Sorry John, but these are not “crank” letters. Many of the local tea party activists are regular contributors to the letters section. This is a group that likes to share their feelings.
- RJW - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:05 pm:
I read Cincy’s link about the Tea Party movement and found it helpful. I think their problem is they do a very poor job communicating their “true” mission, which is what happens when you have a leaderless group. Of course the “outside” is going to focus on the nutty signs and crazy talk of some of the people that associate with the Tea Party. I don’t fall for that crap, though, b/c craziness is an equal opportunity invader no matter the particular political persuasian.
Now, I don’t particularly support the positions of the Tea Party. But, that doesn’t mean I consider them the devil. I don’t know why we seem to have adopted the attitude in this country that if you don’t believe the same way politically that I do then somehow you are the antichrist. I don’t understand this “return to the Constitution” crap the Tea Party keeps talking about. I’m pretty smart and studied this stuff in college and haven’t seen any threats to our Constitution recently. It’s stuff like that which makes the Tea Party look nuts.
Sure, have a debate about what are the best policies for the country, but do it in a civil way for the love of God.
Also:
@John Bambenek - lighten up; I don’t know what the hell Halo is
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:09 pm:
Going nuclear-
I didn’t say they were crank letters, I said the “Letters to the editor” is the crank section. I view it about as authoritative as the comment sections in most online news sites. What names, I’d be happy to verify if they are, in fact, leaders.
RJW-
http://www.redvsblue.com will get you up to speed on Halo.
And one could argue (and in fact, many state attorney generals are) that the “individual mandate” is a direct attack on the interstate commerce clause. Mostly because it is an intrastate transaction they are forcing.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:12 pm:
Peggy, as you noted, you referred to them as uneducated and rural, which I thought was quite slanderous. Why presume that they’re rural just because they misspell words? Can’t city dwellers or suburbanites misspell as well? My goodness, I’m from a rural area. I take sooooooo much offense at those hurtful digs at my prideful heritage. On behalf of my ancestors, going all the way back to Thomas Jefferson’s family itself, I demand an immediate apology! Are you not aware that the founding founders were mostly rural? Why do you hate America so much? Stop taking my freedom away! I want my (rural) country back! [/snark]
- Wensicia - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:12 pm:
Catherina,
There is one thing that can’t be taught in the halls of higher education, that’s common sense. Holding one or more degrees doesn’t necessarily mean you have it…
- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:13 pm:
Google me!
LOL
Keith Olbermann named me “Worst Person in the World”, too. I beat Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh!
Did Jesus carry a gun?
Don’t know.
He also didn’t live in Chicago.
Oh yeah, I have a cyber stalker. He blogs about me. We found him parked outside my house. He’s listed my parents’ residential address. Yeah, I told him to get lost. He’s quite creepy.
And so sorry about the typo! No, they don’t teach grammar at Northwestern. You learn that in grade school, Mike.
Rich, your #1 subscribers are politicans. You’ve been pushing your fax rag for years. Without the politicans, you are out of business. You work for them. You pander to them. You constantly seek their financial business. I know. I took your calls.
- Michelle Flaherty - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:15 pm:
I always love it when someone says they “attended” a university as opposed to “graduated” from a university.
Often a nicer way of saying “flunked out of a university.”
It’s always a red flag on resumes, bios, etc.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:18 pm:
If you took my calls, then you know how nervous they were when I did call.
You are obviously not quite right.
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:20 pm:
Catherine,
So what you are saying is both grade school and Northwesern failed to teach you the difference between “gage” and “gauge”?
Here’s a hint: When responding to a post suggesting that tea partiers can’t spell, run a spell check.
Also, what does “I’m attended” mean?
- chuddery - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:20 pm:
Rich,
I’m surprised you didn’t just say bite me
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:21 pm:
===Did Jesus carry a gun?
Don’t know.===
Were there guns back then?
- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:22 pm:
No, Michelle. My last year, I had to leave. I couldn’t afford it. But good guess.
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:23 pm:
Rich,
My apologies for presuming you meant certain things. I was going with the general meme of the media about the tea party. I can’t say I grew up on a farm, but I am no urbanite. We are happily surrounded by cornfields here.
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:24 pm:
Great to see the private market prevented Catherina from obtaining a college degree. It is so efficient!
- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:24 pm:
Don’t know if they had guns.
But there was a cross and He did die for my sins.
- This is a Riot - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:25 pm:
I repeat, this is priceless!
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:26 pm:
Jesus didn’t have to carry a gun. He could just give you boils in a very uncomfortable place if he was that kind of guy.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:26 pm:
That was a facetious question. Of course they didn’t have guns 2,000 years ago. Try the Google. Exactly what did you learn at Northwestern?
- Zora - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:27 pm:
Catherina, get a grip. They don’t teach grammar in grad school, they teach it in elementary school.
And you own Rich an apology: you took Peggy’s screed about rural folk and applied it to him.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:28 pm:
“And you own Rich an apology”
Bad Grammar: It’s not just for tea baggers anymore.
/snark
- Michelle Flaherty - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:30 pm:
Welcome aboard CW, enjoy the show. You’ve certainly added to what seemed like it was going to be a slow Friday.
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:32 pm:
I did not have a screed about rural folk, but about the disadvantages that poor rural people experience, and that they are excluded from opportunities that other “disadvantaged” groups are granted. I am not screeding on THEM, but on their being left out and insulted by others. People from all walks of life are in tea parties, including rural, suburban and urban dwellers. In fact, I thought some polling found tea partiers to be fairly educated with decent incomes.
- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:33 pm:
Errr… Rich, yeah, I know. Stupid questions get stupid answers.
Zora, Zora, Zora… Go back and read my post, doll. I specificly said grade school, NOT grad school. READ IT SLOWLY. WHEN YOU ADD AN ‘E’ AT THE END OF GRAD, IT BECOMES GRADE.
omg………………….
Owe Rich?
Errr, don’t think so, hun.
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:34 pm:
It would appear that Catherina is the mayor of wacky town. Yikes!!!
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:34 pm:
This is truly one of the more entertaining threads we’ve had in a while. Wasn’t feeling well at all this morning. I’m better now. Thanks, everybody!
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:35 pm:
And here come the ALL CAPS posts. lol. Predictable.
- Anonymous - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:40 pm:
Rich, you’re just part of the lamestream media. Why do you spend so much time talking about boring things like the state budget deficit? You need to worry about the important issues; you know, like Obama’s birth certificate.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:41 pm:
Obama’s birth certificate is unimportant…
What’s the latest on Lindsay Logan?!?!?!
- IL Yeezy - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:42 pm:
Deep South: She ran unopposed, but her greatest opponent was herself.
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:43 pm:
I am concerned about the extreme pro-typist anti-typo sentiment bubbling up on the blog….
- train111 - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:43 pm:
Anonymous @ 3:40
Obama’s Birth Certificate:
Good God No!!!
200 posts of nutjob crazy coming in 3.2.1 ….
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:47 pm:
===What’s the latest on Lindsay Logan?!?!?! ===
Bad Spelling: It’s not just for Zora anymore.
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:47 pm:
train its not really an issue. Everyone knows that Obama was created in Axelrod industries manchuran biotech lab, therefore he has no birth certificate.
- Wensicia - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:49 pm:
What I said about Palin suppoters? I rest my case!
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:50 pm:
Sorry Rich… I get so worked up when thinking about poor Lindsay in prison.
Also, 9-11 was an inside job.
- Anonymous - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:50 pm:
The irony is NYT said tea party types are actually better educated than average.
If anyone doesn’t understand where they’re coming from it’s because you’re not trying to understand.
That means you’re out of touch with about 20% of the population, or about 60 million fellow Americans. Ignoring such a large group that doesn’t feel represented or imposed upon is not constructive and could become increasingly divisive.
Even if you don’t want to understand them, it would be very wise to listen carefully to their concerns and start seeking solutions.
- Justice - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:50 pm:
I love it!
People making signs must sometimes feel that it’s important to seem like “common” folk, thus they slip in a misspelled word or two. At least I hope that was the case?
Though I do love the irony in it. Now, off to git me one o dim t-shirts. Maybe I can get one to support concealed carry that says “What Would Jesus Carry?”
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:51 pm:
Ghost-
Then the real question is, who holds the deed to ObamaBot?
- Wensicia - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:51 pm:
Uh..supporters. My bad.
- Zora - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:52 pm:
I apologize for misreading Catherina’s post (and for the typo, but really, I’m not as bad as Ghost).
See, it is easy.
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:55 pm:
Don’t pick on Palin! She is up in Alaska standing a wall between us and Russia (or maybe its a bridge). “Because [she] stand[s] upon a wall and say[’s], “Nothing’s going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch.”"
J.B. Elvis Presely holds the deed, down in his South American fortress.
- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:56 pm:
Wacky Town?
More like Liberal Hell.
The caps are necessary, Rich. Zora has weak reading skills and I wanted to make sure she understood the difference between grad and grade.
Yes, I’m not the lover of the typo police either.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:56 pm:
The ironic sign in that John V. Moore photo above wasn’t a quick one-off. It’s been around since at least early July…
http://deptofnance.blogspot.com/2010/07/teaparty-prodigy-of-week-truth-hurts.html
- Skeeter - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:56 pm:
Anon 3:50:
About 20% of Americans are Very Very Very Angry (although they seem to have no idea what they are angry about, and many of their positions are odd and/or contradictory)?
Yeah, that seems about right.
- "Clerks" fan - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 3:57 pm:
Thanks Rich. This post has been the bright part of my week. Those politicians you work for are not paying you enough for this kind of entertainment. LOL
- IL Yeezy - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:00 pm:
–Also, 9-11 was an inside job.–
That Tea Party sign was an inside job.
- Anonymous - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:01 pm:
Polls also show that 50% of Americans are too busy drinking beer and watching “Jersey Shore” to pay attention to politics, and have no idea who’s in office or what any of the issues are.
Not surprisingly, this number jumps up to 67% among registered voters in Illinois.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:02 pm:
Good thing I drink scotch then.
Rich is buying with his huge state paycheck.
- Rich Miller - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:06 pm:
I don’t drink Scotch. If you wanna drink with me, it’s Jameson or nothing.
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:09 pm:
Jameson is ok if yah can handle the real stuff…. Ezra Brooks
- wait a minute - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:10 pm:
Justice,
If you make that shirt I’ll buy it.
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:10 pm:
I dont’ think they’re angry - they’re afraid, very afraid. For Beck, Breitbart, Fox, Rush, Hanity, etc., “scaring white people” is the standard mode of operation these days - and a fearful people are an unthinking people. Plenty of evidence of that over in Nutjobistan.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:11 pm:
All my bad drinking stories involve Jameson. I believe, Rich, you are trying to generate an incident that will be used as oppo on me later.
- 47th Ward - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:11 pm:
Leave the tea bags, take the Jameson.
- Dave von Ebers - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:11 pm:
Ms. Wojtowicz, I was there yesterday and I observed your little “protest” (not too impressive; maybe 25 tea partiers in total) and I have a question for you. Why was your group chanting “We want jobs!” when the President arrived? Is it the government’s job to provide unemployed tea partiers with work? I thought you folks were all about the free market.
- Deep South - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:11 pm:
Jameson? I’m there.
- Chitownhv - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:12 pm:
Best Friday postings ever!
- Peggy SO-IL - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:15 pm:
And to think I could have roasted in the sun whilst the children swim at the pool! A fun Friday indeed.
Cheers.
- ShadyBillBrady - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:15 pm:
What’s that classic quote attributed to Mark Twain?
“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
Or, if JB was typing it and CW was adding CAPS for emphasis, something like this:
“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool THEN to open it and remove all doubt.”
- Ghost - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:15 pm:
So much for my mage of Rich drinking a slow gin fizz with a little umbrella in it while practicing his elocution lessons
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:17 pm:
ShadyBillBrady-
You’re so clever. Did you type that one-handed?
- Objective Dem - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:17 pm:
Catherina or other Tea Party Patriots,
I’m curious to have you explain why the sign says we are losing “even our children.” I can’t think of anything that has changed in the past two years in regards to abortion or parental rights. So why the big concern now?
- lakeview - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:20 pm:
What I like about the Tea Party’s orthographical challenges is that it proves to everyone that white people are not elites. I don’t think that’s their goal, though. Their membership will be rising as we get more cuts in education spending, too. I can’t wait to see all the new words invented when Sarah Palin runs for president.
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:26 pm:
Objective Dem-
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/70584
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/25/hicks-rights-of-a-child-is-parental-issue/?page=1
That’s the theory. And of course there is the every fluid boundary of school officials enforcing school code outside the boundaries of the school, but I’m not sure that’s the pressing issue.
The entire fight over sex ed (comprehensive v abstinence only) is really a fight over which group gets to control what values are taught to other people’s kids.
You could even put parental notification of abortion into that equation. Parents need to be at least informed if not consent to every decision of a minor… except in the case of abortion where that authority is transferred to the entity that stands to profit by only one decision (to have an abortion). The rationale, that a parent *might* be abusive.
- ShadyBillBrady - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:27 pm:
Awww, don’t take everything so personally JB.
And I thought you were not in favor of using sexual innuendo?
- John Bambenek - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:31 pm:
Who said I took it personally, maybe I’m just busting your chops because I’m bored.
- Catherina Wojtowicz - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:32 pm:
Let’s see:
We had a real estate broker.
A small business owner (me).
A doctor.
Two nurses.
A Chicago cop.
A home school teacher.
Two traders.
One guy was unemployed.
But why did we chant “We want jobs.”
Errr… Do you know we have a very high unemployment rate — 9.5% — and that’s a bit deceiving… It’s actually much higher.
If he freed the markets, as our 2nd cheer said, we would have jobs for people.
Now, since you were there, you would know.
- ShadyBillBrady - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 4:41 pm:
Maybe.
Or maybe you were so “worked up” over Lindsay “Logan” that you were the one typing with one hand.
;)
- Scott Fawell's Cellmate - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 5:25 pm:
150 posts on a non-indictment, non-election afternoon ! Rich, this must be a record !
See, good things do happen when John B., Christina and the Tea Baggers get themselves a good ol’ batch a paint, some there brushes and a whole busload of unfocused, crazy madness !
Now, Tea Baggers, please give us MORE ALL CAPS SCREEDS !
AND MORE EXCLAMATION POINTS !!!!!
This is awesome.
- wordslinger - Friday, Aug 6, 10 @ 5:36 pm:
What’s this rural folk stuff, Peggy? I was raised on a farm and I can spell.
I can read, too. And if you read even a little bit of history, you learn that people in the United States today, of any class or persuasion, have more freedom and more material wealth than any other people in the history of the planet.
I’m also first-generation and I know how lucky I am that my parents left everything behind to come to this country. That was there greatest gift to their children. It infuriates me to witness the ingratitude of these petulant children who think the world owes them a no-risk, no-problem life.
Tea Partiers think they have it so bad. Life’s a struggle and unfair. Cry me a river. Get over it and get to work.
Curiously, you never hear them moaning about the teens and twenty somethings getting killed and the billions being spent propping up the heroin kingpins in Afghanistan.
Tea Partiers are the new victim class. Give me a break.
- Mary, Sterling - Saturday, Aug 7, 10 @ 7:46 am:
Bad spelling: brought to you proudly by the NEA.
Btw: ‘ware the plants at any TP gathering. Seiu, NEA,Afscme, etc., members being paid to show up in unwholesome t-shirts, act belligerently and carry signs with all sorts of grievous errors as a ‘testament’ to the TP’s “rube” nature.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Monday, Aug 9, 10 @ 5:22 am:
Mark Kirk and Judy Biggert both voted for the Bailout.
If the Tea Party’s looking for someone to blame, perhaps they should start there.